Dms, dont you wish

Tinker Gnome

Adventurer
Dont you wish(No funny remarks about a Wish spell are to be in this thread :p ) that there were not so much rules. And that more could just be left up to judgement calls, that your players did not argue about you with. I ahve never played any other edition but 3.0. But I wish there was a Rules-lite version of D&D. It is more like my players run the game than I do.
 

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Well, I started playing with AD&D2e, and a lot of the rules were either so confusing, so poorly written, or so esoteric that we ended up making up more than half of it on the spot anyway, which was quite enjoyable in its own way, but a bit difficult at moments, and really unbalanced as some of our players got really huge benefits (the spellcasters) while others fell behind in terms of comparitive power.

While being nailed to a specific set of rules required adjusting, the fact that balance was much better amongst the party was worth it.
 

Just do like my DM does... make it the players responsibility to KNOW the rules... you just provide the final say when necessary...

There is never a time when I can ask the DM how something works (ie, bull rush, charge, feint, spell resistance). I either have to know it myself or be ready to look it up when my turn rolls around...

That way, you are not the one that has to DO everything when it comes to rules and your main job becomes, for most purposes, the one who calls judgement.

As a player, I really like it.
 

Galeros said:
Dont you wish that there were not so much rules. And that more could just be left up to judgement calls, that your players did not argue about you with.

NO!!!
Rules are wonderful things. Without them, you may decide two distinctly different ways of resolving an issue later on. It's unfair simply to leave it in DM hands. Rules are great ways to minimize potential arguing. And I have one player who knws the rules better than I do, and two more who know them just as well I do. If they have a point, they bring it up, let me read the section and I'll make a decision, in 30-60 secs max. Sometimes I'll say, Rule 0...this is the way it works. But, none of my current players have ever argued with me.
I may say next week, I was wrong the following week on another call, and from now on we'll handle it like A or B, but, I've never been given any grief over any of my snap decisions.
 

It's unfair simply to leave it in DM hands.

Only if you have a DM who can't be trusted to be fair.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting down people who prefer a more complex rules set. I play 3E far more than any other game. But yes, there are times where I prefer games that leave a lot more in the DM's/ST's/Whatever's hands. And if I didn't trust the DM to be fair, to treat the PCs and NPCs equally, and to listen to reasonable discussion, I wouldn't play with him.
 

Mouseferatu said:
Only if you have a DM who can't be trusted to be fair.

I agree completely. There must be a lot of groups running the us vs. him/her style of D&D.

Deep down all good DMs are cheering for their players to have successful characters. We all want to have fun. Sometimes that means a ruling will go against a player - it's tough to have fun when there are no challenges!
 

I like having a very simple ruleset - d20 + mods vs. DC - and all the other stuff should be DM/Player call. However, as a DM, I always rule in favour of the PCs in a tight situation. On purpose.
 

Galeros said:
Dont you wish(No funny remarks about a Wish spell are to be in this thread :p ) that there were not so much rules. And that more could just be left up to judgement calls, that your players did not argue about you with.
I haven't had a problem with players arguing with me so far. *knocks on wood*

As far as the rules go, no, I don't wish for a rules lite version of D&D. The problem with leaving it in my hands is that I'd just have to write down some rules when the situation came up, so that it would be handled the same way later. So I'd rather they just gave me the rules to begin with. If I don't like the way they work in play, I can change them, but I like having them there, and standardized, to start with.
 

IMO extensive rules are a good thing. You can always disregard any rules you don't like, quite easily, but making up rules when there aren't any is difficult.
 

Galeros said:
Dont you wish that there were not so much rules?

Nope, I love it the way it is. But then again, I'm pretty good at handling the rules and such, so it may just be a matter of desire/experience.


And that more could just be left up to judgement calls, that your players did not argue about you with.

As others have said, it's all a matter of trust with your players. In older editions of AD&D the players had NO choice but to trust the rulings of the DM as the rule system could be so diificult to decipher that it left most at a loss for how the the rules worked in many situations.

In 3.x D&D we get a little spoiled since the rule system functions quite well in almost every situation, working well in the areas of balance, versatility, and speed of use. Though all of this requires a solid grasp of the rules to benefit from. I've seen many folk have problems and complained about the system, but upon further investigation it would often be due to a lack of a full-understanding of the rules as written, or a conceptual problem at the heart of the system (such as a dislike for level-based character progression for example).


I have never played any other edition but 3.0. But I wish there was a Rules-lite version of D&D. It is more like my players run the game than I do.

Well normally I'd suggest not running the game since you'd be unable to assist a player with a problem understanding or making use of rules in game play. To be honest I'd play the game and read the books to gain more experience and knowledge of the system before I'd attempt DMing for others. I've found the best games are run by folk that have a good grasp of the rules system.

That being said, especially when learning the system for the first time as a group, this is less of a problem if everyone i nthe group is muddling through and learning for the first time together. Barring that, I'd suggest the same as others already have: Make use of your knowledgeable players! As long as you trust your players to know the rules well and to not take advantage of you lack of knowledge for their own gain.

Even as a skilled DM in a system you know well it is impossible to know all the rules clearly but you'd better know the core rules such as AoO, movement, Grapple, etc. pretty well or game play could be stalled to the detriment of the game. I trust my players to understand the niche rules concerning the players such as secific spells, class abilities, special feats, etc. without my having to look them up (though likely I too will pick up these rules over time just from the PCs use of them, which is a good thing).

Having an asset player in the group who can add rules knowledge and such can speed up game play and generally be quie useful, but taken too far can be hazardous to game play. It's important for the group to look to the DM for rules-advice and for the DM o take this role of leadership and only make use of knowledgeable players as advisors on the matter of rules-decisions. As long as this is clear and understood (and all are comfortable with this) you'll have a smooth running and enjoyable game. If a knowledgeable player takes this to extreme, it could prove damaging to the game experience. But there should be a balance between DM knowledge and player knowledge, as I said above:

(1) The DM's responsibility is to possess a solid and broad grasp of the rule system as a whole to effectively manage and adjudicate game play.

(2) Players are responsible for knowledge of all the niche-rules concerning the characters and a general grasp of the combat system.

So with that said, to continue running the game I'd suggest to make good use of your players as you learn and pick up the rule system. I've found the adage "You don't have to know ALL the rules, you just have to know how to FIND them." to be quite true. As long as you know where to look in the books this will facilitate your learning and speed up game play by reducing the number of pages turned in-game.

Best of luck!
 

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