D&D General DM's: How transparent are you with game mechanics "in world?"

[Maxperson]

Wrong on one count: Aragorn doesn't want the Witch-King's powers because he's smart, he doesn't want the Witch-King's powers because he's good.

It's also because he's not stupid. I'll grant you the good part as well, but even if he wasn't good I doubt he'd want to be enslaved to Sauron and that side effect was known to him. It wasn't known to the kings of men when the Nazgul got their rings.

 

[Lyxen]

It doesn't really matter where they are. We know they exist. Even orcs could do magic.

We have definitely not read the same book and watched the same film. When does this happen ?

We know that 1) magic is learnable

And where do we know this from ?

You never read the Silmarillion did you?

I actually did, you know, but all the examples that you show prove exactly the contrary of what you are trying to prove.

She was more powerful than many, if not most of the Maiar. Luthian, a half-elf/half-maia was able to enchant Morgoth, a Vala.

And again, how does this prove that men can use magic ? She was a real demi-goddess.

Fingolfin, Galadriel's brother took on Morgoth in combat and wounded him forever 8 times. He only lost because he stumbled and fell.

Yes, with his sword. Where is the magic here ?

Galadriel was a match for Sauron(no ring), Gandalf and the others and would easily have matched Sauron(with the ring) if she had taken the One Ring.

Again, power is not the issue here, it's the type of power. So far, all the examples that we both have given show that certain individuals, and only those, because of their lineage or because of prophecy, can use certain types of power. I don't see ANY of the humans/hobbits in LotR showing the slightest possibility of getting the power exhibited by NPCs/Adversaries, that's all.

 

[Maxperson]

We have definitely not read the same book and watched the same film. When does this happen ?

Gandalf can't have tried their spells if they couldn't do the magic. He says it in both the book and the movie as I quoted to you earlier.

I actually did, you know, but all the examples that you show prove exactly the contrary of what you are trying to prove.

Except not. You declaring that they are contrary does not make them so.

And again, how does this prove that men can use magic ? She was a real demi-goddess.

Maia are not gods. Vala are not gods. Eru was god. She was not a demi-goddess.

Yes, with his sword. Where is the magic here ?

Now you're moving the goalposts. We're discussing power levels right now and Fingolfin's power level was such that he was confused with one of the other Vala by those who saw him riding towards Morgoth to challenge him. He was not simply mundane.

"He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. "

Galadriel has magic power. One of her titles is the Mistress of Magic.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Luthian, a half-elf/half-maia was able to enchant Morgoth, a Vala. Fingolfin, Galadriel's brother took on Morgoth in combat and wounded him forever 8 times. He only lost because he stumbled and fell.

JRR was really an adversarial DM. He took badly to Fingolfin using action surge and insisted on the playing having critical failures from then.

 

[Lyxen]

Gandalf can't have tried their spells if they couldn't do the magic. He says it in both the book and the movie as I quoted to you earlier.

The fact that he pronounced the spell in orcish does not prove that there were orc wizards. It's ridiculous to claim that there were when there is not even the hint of one in all the books. It's far more probable than it's because there are concepts there that cannot be expressed in other tongues.

Maia are not gods. Vala are not gods. Eru was god. She was not a demi-goddess.

The Maiar were primordial spirits created to help the Valar first shape the World. They were not mortals and were of divine essence.

Now you're moving the goalposts. We're discussing power levels right now

No we are not. You are trying to draw the discussion in that direction just because you can't prove that there are paths which are closed to some characters. Again, it's not a question of the level of power, but of the fact that some NPCs have powers that PCs will never have.

Galadriel has magic power. One of her titles is the Mistress of Magic.

And once more, it just proves that, in LotR, where no-one who could be considered a "PC" has magic powers, there are a number of NPCs with magic powers (including some of mortal descent) which the PC simply cannot have, they simply cannot be trained.

 

[Maxperson]

The fact that he pronounced the spell in orcish does not prove that there were orc wizards. It's ridiculous to claim that there were when there is not even the hint of one in all the books. It's far more probable than it's because there are concepts there that cannot be expressed in other tongues.

Right, because maia just went around casting spells in orcish a lot

As for concepts, he's literally talking about spells of opening and all the tongues of elves and men and orcs. No reason to make it in orcish if you have elvish and the languages of men. Unless of course orcish spellcasters have the spell and he learned those at some point.

The men of Numenor were able to create magic items. You think they just snapped their fingers and made those? Or do you think they used magic to make them? Aragorn says this about them,

"Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor."

The Maiar were primordial spirits created to help the Valar first shape the World. They were not mortals and were of divine essence.

They were angelic and their power ranged from not very powerful to Vala(archangel).

And once more, it just proves that, in LotR, where no-one who could be considered a "PC" has magic powers, there are a number of NPCs with magic powers (including some of mortal descent) which the PC simply cannot have, they simply cannot be trained.

They can have it, they just haven't been taught. There nothing to indicate that they are only for NPCs.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

The fact that he pronounced the spell in orcish does not prove that there were orc wizards. It's ridiculous to claim that there were when there is not even the hint of one in all the books. It's far more probable than it's because there are concepts there that cannot be expressed in other tongues.

Err... isn't that stretching the credibility? Occam's razor favors the explanation that some spells are in orcish because they are chanted by orcs first. At least, you should propose that Gandalf was trying to convince an orcish-speaking door to open.

 

[billd91]

Galadriel has magic power. One of her titles is the Mistress of Magic.

Yeah, Galadriel (the niece of Fingolfin, not his sister) has magical power - but aside from seeing into the hearts and intentions of people, nothing is enumerated or on display. So exactly how much power she has or whether or not she'd be a match for Sauron is nothing but wild conjecture.

On the power of Fingolfin, keep in mind that at the time he faced Morgoth, he was the High King of the Noldor. Tolkien puts great store in power belonging to those with right - Fingolfin would have been at the absolute apex of his might - probably considerably greater than Fëanor's. And he still, inevitably, failed because Morgoth would always be able to outlast his best efforts.

Honestly, this whole debate is kind of silly because it's SO FULL of massive assumptions.

 

[Lyxen]

Right, because maia just went around casting spells in orcish a lot

Gandalf is not the usual wizard (but then there are only five). But once more, where are all these orcish spellcasters ? With all the orcs that we see, and all these armies, there is not a single one of them, not the hint that there could be one apart from Gandalf who is the only wizard to have made a study of such "lesser" things.

"Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor."

And again, no proof that these can be taught to anyone. And forging is again another matter, look at what dwarves did for example, and of course, we see entire regiments of dwarven spellcasters.

See for example: "Magic in Middle-earth was explained as an innate ability set of the Ainur and the Firstborn, to the exclusion of other peoples. Regardless, The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings both contain descriptions of special items and weapons that are said to have been crafted by Men and Dwarves, such as the dagger wielded by Merry which stabbed the Witch-king and Angrist."

They were angelic and their power ranged from not very powerful to Vala(archangel).

Yes, angelic, "divine", in essence not mortal and therefore not PCs.

They can have it, they just haven't been taught. There nothing to indicate that they are only for NPCs.

And yet, factually, they are, in all the books, and you have absolutely zero proof that they can be taught. It's rather the contrary, have a look at letter 155 and things like: "At the end of the draft noted as Letter 155, he wrote "a difference between the use of 'magic' in this story [The Lord of the Rings] is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but it is an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such."

Mentions are all over the place about the fact that not everyone can do everything.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Par exists for a reason.

Yes, but are you winning if you match par? Or did you just achieve the average result expected of the course?