D&D General DMs: where's your metagaming line?

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Trying to discern the reason and motivation for a player to make a particular decision for their character in search of evidence of "metagaming" is the very definition of policing thoughts in my view. That's definitely not for me. I don't see any benefit to it. I expect that players are going to want to overcome challenges and leverage whatever tools they have at their disposal to do so. This includes knowledge of monsters, modules, tropes, setting lore, and anything else. I don't see any good reason to demand the players take those off the table because of some calculation about what the character may or may not know, nor would I expect them to. If they do, great. If they don't, that's fine too. It's their character.
Thus, far better to simply not give them campaign-specific info* that their characters wouldn't know. Then if they somehow end up with this info anyway you know it didn't come from you; you've got a cheater on your hands, and you can take the appropriate steps.

Replace the bolded "they" above with "their characters" and we'd fully agree here.

* - e.g. in-game secrets, adventure spoilers, knowledge of what remote characters are doing, etc. Players having more generic knowledge e.g. the troll-fire example is, unfortunately, mostly unavoidable; and is a different thing.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Is it not a problem because the knowledge doesn't help with the way you set it up? Or would it now become a problem for a party where the players didn't go study everything?
I'm not following your question. It's not a problem because I don't base the structure of my encounters on the players pretending to not know things. I provide lots of information and hate knowledge checks to see what you know (proficiency gets you lots of free info, no roll needed -- you tell me how much you think your character knows). The nature of the challenges in my game do not rest on having to pretend you don't know things as a player.

There are two conflicting things going on in every discussion about "metagaming." The first is the sense of wonder of the player -- running into new fantastical things and figuring them out is fun but you actually have to be surprised by them. The second is the placement of the character into the setting -- it makes sense that the character knows things about their world because they live there. What might be new to me as a player could easily be the stuff of legends for the character, told and retold every holiday. These conflict because we're talking about two different goals that do not align; I cannot be surprised as a player by new and wonderous things when my character should know about them as a matter of being in that world, and vice versa. So, this conflict is usually solved by skewing one way or the other -- you force characters to be aliens in the world to preserve player wonder or you lessen player wonder by providing the information the character would know about their own world. There are a few constructs that get around this, but you average D&D adventure or setting is not one of these.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
I'm not following your question. It's not a problem because I don't base the structure of my encounters on the players pretending to not know things. I provide lots of information and hate knowledge checks to see what you know (proficiency gets you lots of free info, no roll needed -- you tell me how much you think your character knows). The nature of the challenges in my game do not rest on having to pretend you don't know things as a player.

That pretty much answers it.

Your previous one read like "I assume my players know everything about the rule books and monsters in them and I set the encounters based on that assumption." I was wondering if that would make some encounters really tough then if you had a group of players who hadn't studied up. You do the obvious and just tell them.
 

I don't have a line. Players are free to read and know anything they want. At least 50% to 75% or more of my game has nothing to do with what is written down in a book somewhere. Does page 33 of some silly book say the guard is XYZ? Really? Well, not in my game.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Thus, far better to simply not give them campaign-specific info* that their characters wouldn't know. Then if they somehow end up with this info anyway you know it didn't come from you; you've got a cheater on your hands, and you can take the appropriate steps.

Replace the bolded "they" above with "their characters" and we'd fully agree here.

* - e.g. in-game secrets, adventure spoilers, knowledge of what remote characters are doing, etc. Players having more generic knowledge e.g. the troll-fire example is, unfortunately, mostly unavoidable; and is a different thing.
I don't police what they establish their characters think. If they say their character thinks, for example, that there's a trap in the dragon fountain in Sunless Citadel which they've played before, that's fine with me. Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong. If they are right, we'll resolve whatever they do about that trap like any other trap. That's not "cheating" in my view and I'm not going to have my DMing guided by trying to catch players out on "metagaming." This seems like a big waste of time and energy to me for no gain.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
I don't police anything, but the character that bought a used copy of the Desert of Desolation and read it cover to cover to make sure they didn't miss any treasure or secret areas was metagaming and cheating.

Sure I can change monsters and mod adventures, and I do it consistently to fit the homebrew world we game in.

But (I feel) that regardless of how you could somehow justify that person's character knowing the info, that was not the player's intent, their intent was to cheat and "win".
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I don't police anything, but the character that bought a used copy of the Desert of Desolation and read it cover to cover to make sure they didn't miss any treasure or secret areas was metagaming and cheating.

Sure I can change monsters and mod adventures, and I do it consistently to fit the homebrew world we game in.

But (I feel) that regardless of how you could somehow justify that person's character knowing the info, that was not the player's intent, their intent was to cheat and "win".
Sure, but, to me, this is a table issue, not a game issue. It needs to be handled at the table, not in the game. It indicates different gaming goals which can be a problem even if not this.
 

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
I think it's a bad mistake to confuse what you're calling metagaming with the idea that it's being done to "win". You've already said there's no winning and losing, but then you're making an argument that doing this is trying to win. It's hard to follow.

Yes!

In the example I gave at the beginning, where the monster used a mind control ability, what would have happened had we acted on that player information? Well, we would have used our actions punching our companion, instead of damaging the monster (and its minions). Our charmed companion would have presumably defended himself, so attack rolls would be required, and even if they succeeded he still needs to make a saving throw...

In other words, the encounter can still be challenging, and can still be fun. (And in my opinion more fun than the pretending we did.). Really the only reason to be bothered by the metagaming is because one thinks that metagaming is bad.

My analogy here is driving etiquette, when there's an upcoming merge. Now, every traffic flow expert will tell you that the greatest overall efficiency is achieved when people "zipper" at the last moment. But I grew up with the fervent belief, bordering on religious ecstasy, that one should attach themselves to the end of the line and wait their turn, and that only sub-human scum zip past and merge at the last second. It's not about efficiency, but protocol. Etiquette. Rules. I will go so far as to sit half in the slow lane and half in the empty lane to keep people from passing.

But, really, those people zipping past are, in aggregate, reducing congestion. So really my only possible objection is that it just doesn't seem right.

I think that's some of what's going on with the hatred of metagaming.

If only I could be as sanguine about merging as I am about metagaming.
 


SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
Sure, but, to me, this is a table issue, not a game issue. It needs to be handled at the table, not in the game. It indicates different gaming goals which can be a problem even if not this.
OP asked where my line was for metagaming, so I laid it out.

It is definitely like you say, a person problem, not a game problem. But it falls under the category of metagaming to me.
 

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