DnD Economy

[fusangite]

There is a fourth stage or more a zeroth stage before (possibly parallel to) stage 1 which involves 'Gift Exchange' (which was the system in classical Greece and other tribal cultures)

Great point Tonguez. Also, let's recognize that in most worlds, these different monetary paradigms are all concurrently in effect amongst different groups (and sometimes multiple systems within the same group!).

 

[catsclaw227]

Equipment prices can change by GM fiat without the system, as a whole falling apart. Sure it's inconvenient to rewrite an equipment price table for a modern setting but rewriting the table doesn't alter the relative power of spell casters every time you do it, unless you have something like the item creation mechanics of 3.x.

So then how would the relative value of magic items be altered if the game world worked in a manner described in Unearthed Arcana's Craft Points system? This makes time less important and I imagine that XP/GP cost is also fundamentaly altered as well.

 

[fusangite]

So then how would the relative value of magic items be altered if the game world worked in a manner described in Unearthed Arcana's Craft Points system? This makes time less important and I imagine that XP/GP cost is also fundamentaly altered as well.

Couldn't say. I haven't read the book.

 

[AnonymousOne]

Maybe the citizens don't understand the price elasticity of demand. Just give them the formula
E(sub)d =%(delta)Q(sub)d /% (delta)P

That would clear everything up. I knew that economics class would finally pay off.

Yeah but that only works if you're a neo-classicist, all of us Austrians laugh at you.

 

[mmadsen]

This thread draws off a concept brought up by Jonny Nexus that needs, IMHO, more consideration.

I would use slightly different nomenclature. After all, a coin-based economy is a monetary economy; it simply isn't a fiat-money-based economy.

Also, one can have paper money without it being modern fiat money, and one can have financial instruments without literally using paper to write them down -- although it is a fairly modern idea to securitize each and every cash flow into a negotiable instrument. That said, one used to purchase a tax franchise, the right to collect taxes.

IMO the DnD world is halfway between stage 1 and stage 2. Drawing an arbitrary line in the sand, coin economy would work for items under 200gp. Items priced above that line would be in the barter system.[

This is an important point: The entire economy does not work on one set of rules. Sales of land may involve the legal system to formally pass along title, so someone has a formal record of who owns what, and each sale might involve a complex contract with many obligations on both sides. Meanwhile, most of the economy might involve simple barter of eggs for beer, etc., with no money changing hands and no extra obligations involved.

 

[Miar]

1b: The campaign is NOT strictly RAW: I certain that I have read some rules in different supplements, WOTC or 3rd party (can someone get me names of the books/suppliments?), that describe item creation rules that allow for the conversion of magic items. This then makes magic items a valuable commodity. Acutally, it makes the artificers or magic item creators of the world valuable personae for any kingdom, city, or village.

Eberron Campaign Setting the .. um Artificer. It's their 5th lv ability Retain Essence you can destroy the item and salvage the exp used to create it.

 

[kigmatzomat]

IMC I definitely run a stage 2 economy, roughly on par with Renaissance-era banking. The primary source of wealth is land & land ownership but trade corporations are relatively common. Secured letters of credit are common and the very wealthy (mostly nobility) can issue what are technically unsecured letters of credit, backed up by the fact that people are confident they have money. This kind of the preliminary phases of the "stage 3" economy but the general masses wouldn't think of using those kinds of notes on a regular basis.

I do apply inflationary aspects in remote locations, as well as providing for discounts on items that are readily available in a specific locale.

One big factor that stabilizes the economy IMO is that resources are NOT finite. Or at least not fixed. Magic can transmute, elemental planes can disgorge, and outsiders may sometimes spontaneously cause things to exist or disappear.

People don't think in terms of "fixed global supply." IRL there is, for instance, a finite supply of petroleum; maybe a lot or maybe a little, but there's not much more being created any time soon in nature. In D&D, you could get a god to create a new oil reserve, tap into some other realm, or use magic to transmute a common material into oil. That aspect of the game puts a real twist onto economic theory as the "supply" side is tons more flexible than IRL.

 

[CruelSummerLord]

I would draw the line at, say, 5,000 to 10,000 gold pieces when it comes to coin. After that, it's generally accepted that gems or jewelry, art objects, or some other more tangible items are used for payments between individuals, although governments, merchants and organizations can often use larger amounts of coin when paying for extremely valuable goods, or a very large quantity.

In my version of things, only an idiot, or someone truly desperate, would sell a permanent magic item; when +1 hand axes with no special qualities are cherished treasures, when being 6th and 7th level marks you out as significant, when the only people who can make permanent or even charged items have to be at least 13th level and 18th level if they're making something permanent; when a 17th-level fighter can still be wielding the very same non-magical, non-masterwork sword he got as a 1st-level neophyte and be wearing the very same non-magical, non-masterwork chain mail he bought at 4th level, without ever getting to wield any magical weapons or armor or even see them used against him, the sale of magic items and their force in the economy is generally not a factor.

I'm one of those people who would insist on gaming in 3E rules using a 1E mentality. Yes, I know that Quasqueton has clearly demonstrated that Gary Gygax said one thing and did another, but what he said in the 1E DMG about the rarity of magic items is one of the things I have taken up as my own, and it is to my mind one of the essential parts of the "1E mentality" so many people go on about.

As such, most people pay using copper and silver coins, and fifty gold pieces is a king's ransom. This includes PCs-if they bring back a lot of gold, and use it to pay things like taxes, scutage fees to avoid military service, sage's fees, hiring mercenaries, buying magical potions, debts of honor, tribute to the king, or whatever else, they still use copper and silver to pay stabling and inn fees, buy food in the market, purchase firewood and coal, pay blacksmiths to refurbish their weapons, and all the other mundane stuff that the game doesn't cover.

Let's not forget that money is as often taken out of the economy as often as it's brought in. For every adventuring band that cleans out a dungeon and comes back with a rich haul, there are four more who meet any number of horrible deaths, with all their money and magic taken out of the mainstream human economy. Goblins, bandits, giants, and more can all win just as often as they lose, and gain that treasure to begin with. Then there are all the stupid but vicious monsters-they might not have any use for the treasure, but they take it out of the economy anyway when they kill and eat its owners.

Most often the PCs are the lucky ones-how many nameless "previous victims" die at the hands of the monsters to give the PCs some sort of tangible reward? Metagame-wise, the treasure is there to reward the PCs, but that money and magic had to come from somewhere; for the adventurers to be able to bring it back and introduce that treasure into the economy, some poor sap had to have been killed and lost that treasure to begin with.

As such, barring any truly oerth-shaking event, the money supply actually stays fairly stable.

 

[painandgreed]

If you were to adopt this view of the DnD Economy, where would you draw the line between Coin and Barter?

Does this view, in your opinion, better reflect the typical fantasy as represented in most popular fantasy novels?

Does this view, in your opinion, better cover the current oddities of the system wherein a 3rd level adventurer is richer than most landed nobles?

Taken in reverse order.

I don't think you really appreciate the income or worth of land. I've worked on how much and landed noble might make, but I'll instead refer to Expeditious Retreat Press' A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe. In the example they give in that book, an adventuring party is essentially given a hamlet of 360 adults to rule over. The total in come of said hamlet is 10,000 gp annually, with a yearly profit after expenses of 5,000 gp. Given that character wealth by level gives a 3rd level adventurer a worth of 2,700 GP, they have a far ways before they could be richer than any landed noble, let alone most. According to the DMG, a 3rd level can't even afford a grand house. Given that worth of such land could be in a range of 8-20 times the annual income, such a hamlet is worth the range of 80k-200k GP. A rich novle or king would probably have an annual income in the millions of GP.

Then you have the status and legal powers due to owning land. The people who make the laws are the people who own the land. Not only is that where the wealth is, but the political body is often defined by geography. Also, those in power who own land are likely to let those who don't share power. If a person's wealth is tied up in the land, they can't pack it up and leave if things get rough, they have to stick it out like the other landowners. Once in control of the government, it's a matter of taxes and the like to make sure they get the money and stay in control. Sure, powerful adventurers could go against society, but then they'd end up living a Robin Hood existance in the woods unless prepared to overthrow the government.

Does the above reflect the state of fantasy novels? Like campaigns, it all depends on which one you are dealing with. Some books do reflect that and get into the gritty details of economy and the like, while other gloss over it. The same goes for D&D games. Some DMs and players enjoy that sort of thing, while others don't. I don't think there is really an "average D&D game" that would match the majority of games out there in too many points. Some DMs and players don't care and for others there are products like those from Expeditous Retreat which are brought up time an time again receive much praise on this board.

Where does an economy based on specie break down and revert back to other commodities? When specie becomes rare for the amounts needed. Most D&D games are fairly gold and silver rich, not even considering platinium. Most transactions can be done in coin. I've seen a fair amount of PCs converting such money into even easier to carry valuables such as gems. I've also seen campaigns where the system was further expanded to mithril and adamantine. Thus one pound of adamantine is worth 1000 pounds of gold (5000GP). For myself, IMC, such a thing is hard to say because at those amounts of wealth, there is not only money involved but also status. Land, magic items, objects d'art that are worth so much that is is easier to deal in them than metal money, would probably be more due to the demands of the person owed than actual value. Common items (which for such a discussion would include things such low level magic weapons) might not tempt a person where an equal worth of land with attached status and possible power, or rare items such as art or rare magic items, might. You could say that such items, in high demand, are valued much more than their mundane price, but with such items, they're worth what somebody is willing to pay. You can probably get a majority to agree on a price for such things, but some will be willing to pay more while others will not as opposed to metal money where everybody will generally agree on a value and accept it as such.

Personally, I'd like to see more use of land, status, and art objects in addition to money and magic items in campaigns. Things like the above mentioned "gift economy" would come into play, but it is hard to use in game. From RL experience, we know that, people will pay more for things like vanity items that might convey status, but it's hard to convert into game mechanics. Some players will go along with it and buy such items for their characters. Others are content to have their rich high level PCs make survival skill checks to catch dinner every night.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Sounds like I need to order me a copy of A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe

Including land and titles into the equation would be a good thing, and something I would like to pursue in a full blown campaign world.

For this threads purpose tho, I am more focused on liquidatable cash on hand... walk into the market type economy questions.

Looking at the cost of rings, I think a coin cap of 10,000 would keep all the 'major' rings in the barter system.. which makes sense to me. Altho it bumps even a +1 weapon as well. {still keeping in mind the community wealth scale and availability limitations}

A 5,000 limit would bump all the 'Medium' rings in the barter system.


So, taking this a step further.. this line is the sand could be affected by the local economy and the political landscape. For instance, in the War of the Burning Sky the group goes to Seaguin and may end up purchasing stuff there. Due to the impending invasion of the Ragesian's the coin cap might be higher as merchants are looking to more soluable trade rather than barter for an item they may end either leaving behind or having to surrender to the invading forces. The old geezer who traded last month for a +2 weapon may well want to get it off his hands and will be willing to risk having a pile of GP for a short period of time.

The line is also affected by the setting. In a low-magic item setting you might cap at 5,000 to keep almost all the magic items in the barter system, while in Sharn you might raise it to 25,000 representing the Artificer and Cannith House influence.

I think for my current game, the WoBS, I will set the cap at 10,000 which puts all magic weapons in the barter system but keeps a fair number of other items such as rings and wonderous figurines available for coin purchase.

I also think the primary barter good available to the group is going to be mini-quests...