D&D 5E DnDBeyond leaks Dark Sun?

[Charlaquin]

I consider apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic to be an intellectually lazy genre.

In my eyes, it is for people that fear the real world changing in front of their eyes, and that cant imagine what life will be like as technologies and societies accelerate. So the story is just to destroy everything, using violence and coercion, to revert to a "good ole days" that never were.

To some degree apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic are little more than a luddite wetdream.

I prefer hope an ingenuity.

It’s fine if post-apocalypse isn’t your cup of tea, but it’s kind of Dark Sun’s whole thing. By all means, plant the seeds of hope for building a new, better society, but if it’s not post-apocalyptic, it’s not Dark Sun.

I feel an important aspect of Dark Sun is the independence of each city-state.

Each one has its own way of doing things.

Some cities can be "advanced".

It can even be a great setting where higher tier characters are founding a new city.

I agree, but I also think an important aspect of Darksun is resource scarcity. An “advanced” city-state should be “advanced” in the context of a world where the few remaining natural resources are concentrated in the hands of the powerful few. Something akin to the Capital in Hunger Games wouldn’t be too amiss, though personally I would lean more towards Gastown, the Bullet Farm, and Immortan Joe’s oasis in Fury Road.

 

[Yaarel]

@Charlaquin

I agree resource scarcity is central to Dark Sun.

But there are different arrangements for how to best use the limited resource, when everyone knows not everyone is able to benefit.

Each city evolves its own response, some more ethical, some less.

Even among the advanced cities, resource management forces some terrible decisions when turning others away.

 

[DarkCrisis]

I see a lot of “slavery will have to be reimagined.”

Did old Dark Sun material depict slavery as a good thing or something? From what I’ve read of it, no.

Slavery had always been depicted as bad. So what is there to reimagine?

 

[grimslade]

The key to Dark Sun is that the setting is bleak, but not unchangeable. You can liberate a city-state from a Sorcerer King. You can help preservers and elemental shamans preserve the life of Athas and possibly reverse the damage of the defilers. It is a world at its worst and lowest point. (Enter Homer Simpson: Its lowest point so far.) The SK can also be realizing that their millennia of pursuing 'godhood' has left them plains of dust and ash. Even the vilest of them may begin to question if it is worth it.
This is why I loved the original box set so much. It was nihilistic enough for my Gen X soul, but it had the potential to be so much better if the PCs could fight for it. Too many settings want to return to a golden age of the past, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance. The past is dead on Athas. It is literally burned away never to return. It is a fresh slate with all the negatives a fresh slate can imply.

 

[grimslade]

I see a lot of “slavery will have to be reimagined.”

Did old Dark Sun material depict slavery as a good thing or something? From what I’ve read of it, no.

Slavery had always been depicted as bad. So what is there to reimagine?

The problem is that you can't depict slavery without treading on a lot of real-world history. The kind of history that still works its way into people's present. Slavery requires a deft hand and skillful writing.

 

[Charlaquin]

@Charlaquin

I agree resource scarcity is central to Dark Sun.

But there are different arrangements for how to best use the limited resource, when everyone knows not everyone is able to benefit.

Each city evolves its own response, some more ethical, some less.

Even among the advanced cities, resource management forces some terrible decisions when turning others away.

So, you’re suggesting some city-states be under authoritative rule while others be egalitarian? With all due respect, that feels to me like it would send the wrong message. The idea that such societies can coexist in a world with finite resources is the fantasy of the anarcho-capitalist.

 

[Charlaquin]

I see a lot of “slavery will have to be reimagined.”

Did old Dark Sun material depict slavery as a good thing or something? From what I’ve read of it, no.

Slavery had always been depicted as bad. So what is there to reimagine?

I don’t think it would need to be re-imagined, but it would need to be treated with great care. You know, the opposite of how we’ve recently seen WotC treating certain game elements…

 

[Yaarel]

So, you’re suggesting some city-states be under authoritative rule while others be egalitarian?

It is kinda like reallife now.

The globe is morphing into city-center metropolises.

Some important resources are starting to deplete.

Worth exploring alternatives.

With all due respect, that feels to me like it would send the wrong message. The idea that such societies can coexist in a world with finite resources is the fantasy of the anarcho-capitalist.

Opposite to anarcho-capitalist (which ironically often defacto means an autocratic police state where the wealthy elite hire the police),

there can be collectivist-communes,

democracies,

covenant communities,

Moonhaven,

and various strategies in between, and outofthebox.

 

[overgeeked]

But hope in Dark Sun is ok by me.

To me, any hope in Dark Sun should be brought by the PCs. Anything short of that and the setting loses internal consistency.

Like adding a free city or a hopeful magitech city. This is why I still default to Dark Sun from the original boxed set and before the novels.

Okay...so if there's a free city, why haven't all the free citizens simply moved there? Everything in the world is bleak and desolate and wants you dead, except this one oasis of hope. Anyone with even an ounce of intelligence would immediately try to go there. We see mirrors of this in the real world. People living in utterly desperate situations simply grabbing up their families and start walking with only the clothes are their back simply for the hope of a better life somewhere else. Not even the sorcerer-kings are powerful enough to stop that, but they'd try. So the sorcerer-kings have tighter borders, restrict freedom of movement, trade suffers, etc but they wouldn't stop them all. Not by a long shot. And the one hopeful city is overrun with refugees and they have to build a border and defend it. Only allow some people in while trying desperately to keep others out. That city's resources are stretched to the breaking point and beyond in no time. The other sorcerer-kings choke off all trade to the free city to strangle it to death. On and on and on. If the setting is handled with any thought at all, even that simple of a change fundamentally alters the setting. Changing it from an allegory about survival, over use of resources, ecology, and preventing the end of the world into an allegory about refugees. While I think a setting that's an allegory about refugees, if handled perfectly, would be cool...that's fundamentally not Dark Sun.

 

[overgeeked]

The problem is that you can't depict slavery without treading on a lot of real-world history. The kind of history that still works its way into people's present. Slavery requires a deft hand and skillful writing.

If the recent flap about the hadozee is any indication, WotC simply does not have the ability to handle these things at all to say nothing of deftly or skillfully.