Remathilis
Legend
The same critique is often used against Ravenloft as being a nihilist setting you can never change. Both Dark Sun and Ravenloft though are about small victories that make life better.
D&D 5E (2014) DnDBeyond leaks Dark Sun?
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humble minion
Legend
I was critical of the 5e Ravenloft because it was very explicit that even your small victories didn't make life better, which is a significant break with previous editions, where you have the 'van Richten model' of PC groups acting like monster investigators, hunting down The Beast Of Dombin Moor or exorcising the Weeping Nun in the manner of Rudolf, and helping out the locals thereby. In he new Ravenloft where everything is tightly darklord-centric, that sort of gameplay isn't really the focus, and the 'reallness' of the locals is ... marginal, and something that's been debated a lot elsewhere so I'll leave it be.
Dark Sun was ALWAYS about improving things though, absolutely. The very first module and novel were about overturning a tyrant and freeing the slaves, from the very first box set one of the major setting villains were those who despoiled nature for personal gain. There wasn't much subtlety there.
gorice
Hero
Sorry for being Captain Pedantry, but this doesn't match at all with what I remember from my (admittedly distant in time) classics degree. Roman slaves were legally 'tools that speak', and the Greeks were traditionally credited with inventing chattel slavery. The actual treatment of these slaves varied greatly depending on role and master, from valued colleagues to expendable objects.
The thing that strikes me about a lot of these slavery discussions is how, well, American they are. I mean, slavery exists right now around the world. Historical US slavery was awful, but it was in no way unique to the US. I don't really have a solution to this sensitivity, or perceived sensitivity. It's just an observation.
As for Hasbro/WotC and Dark Sun: in any likely situation, your best option is to just play it as it currently exists, or adapt it to another system. No-one needs some corporate entity's permission to play DS right now.
Personally, I think 5e is a terrible fit for DS anyway, but there are several fan adaptations. Alternately, there is at least one for 2e Pathfinder (made much easier by the keywords, I'd wager), one for Mythras, and one for B/X. Personally, I've been tinkering with a homebrew system that fits my own idea of what DS is about. We have a lot of options!
humble minion
Legend
That's very true. Though i'd be interested in an indigenous Australian take on the issue (speaking as a non-indigenous Australian).
Relatively little-known fact is that slavery of indigenous Australians and Pacific Islanders was a reality here long after the institution was officially abolished in the USA in 1865. The 'blackbirding' practise was real dark-ages stuff, violent slave raids on Polynesian islands with captives forced into cane-cutting, and that continued well into the 1890s, with the authorities largely turning a willfully blind eye. Whereas there was never officially slavery of indigenous Australians - there was just laws about how they had to work for one master who could punish them at will, weren't allowed to leave, had their lives held extraordinarily cheaply, and the only recompense they got was basic food and shelter while they were working. So, other than the non-existence of actual slave markets - yeah, it was slavery and it continued well into the 20th century.
So it's sometimes tempting for non-Americans to roll their eyes a bit about American cultural sensitivities on the matter of slavery. In the UK and Western Europe, slavery on one's own soil is a thing of the distant past, and can be largely not thought about. But as an Australian, I have to admit that America, by thinking about this sort of stuff and how it might be perceived by those with slavery in their family history, has done a much more mature and courageous reckoning with this part of their history than my country has.
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Ruin Explorer
Legend
I have to say your apparent pedantry does not particularly match what I was taught doing ancient history and archaeology 20 years ago.
The idea that the Greeks "invented chattel slavery" is rather bizarre. It's so bizarre I attempted to find any source on the internet which might back you up, and I couldn't find a single one. What's your basis for that claim? It seems utterly ahistorical, given Greek traditions of slavery were not particularly distinct from earlier ones (that I'm aware of), except the Spartans, and the Helots were definitely not chattel slaves, and realistically occupied a sort of status of particularly violently oppressed serfs. I wonder if it's something some self-regarding Roman author decided was true because some bloke down the taverna told him it was, which, because it's in some surviving classical work, stills gets taught to unwitting classicists.
As for "tools that speak", well I get that Varro liked a snappy turn of phrase, but the man was seemingly obsessed with categorization and simplification (no doubt he was "on the spectrum", not that there's anything wrong with that - I'm neurodiverse myself), and I'm not terribly impressed with him insight-wise. For a man so supposedly well-read in Roman history, it's a particularly odd and inaccurate simplification. Albeit one that was very convenient for various miscreants of later eras to repeat as if it were wisdom or truth, rather than intellectually lazy dehumanization (and dehumanization is far from a recent concept - whilst it wasn't really around in the classical era, and was suppressed hard when people got near it, even as early as 1537 you have popes and the like getting mad about it).
Certainly if you regard what the Romans had as "chattel slavery" (as only one of many forms of slavery in Roman society), which is I agree how older historians describe it (less so more modern ones - the recognition of - or rather interest in - the complexity of Roman slavery has been slow in coming), then we almost need a new word for that the US and Brazil were doing, given it was something even more extreme than the Roman model. And more importantly in this context, slavery as described in Dark Sun more resembles slavery in the US or Brazil.
The form of slavery practiced in the US is actually pretty distinct from most other forms of slavery, so I must strongly disagree. It was more similar to that in Brazil (and obviously the Caribbean), but it's quite distinct from the sort of "tapestry of slavery" of ancient Rome, or most modern-day slavery.
The racial aspect particularly is notable. Whilst the Romans enslaved entire populations, they didn't do so on the basis of ethnicity, and there was no particular thought that because your ancestors were slaves, you necessarily should be (just the usual class-based Roman sneering). Whereas the entire basis of slavery in the Americas was essentially racial in character, and this sort of "separatist", multi-generational slavery colours American depictions of slavery, including Dark Sun. Dark Sun kind of removes the racial character, only to return it in force with the Muls and the like.
So I don't that's a helpful observation or one that leads to truth, rather it's a generalization that leads to confusion. Slavery as practiced today tends to have a unique character of its own, one not really found in history. Because slavery is basically illegal almost everywhere, modern slavery has an illicit character, which simultaneously makes it more tenuous but also less honest and transparent. It's more about what people can get away with, without the authorities noticing, than what is legal. Where basically-legalized-slavery does exist (Qatar, for example), it tends to be somewhat racial in character, dependent on deception, and to most closely resemble indentured servitude rather than chattel slavery. Hand waving as if this were the same as or particularly similar to the aggressive and legalistic chattel slavery of the US in the 1800s, say strikes me as simply misleading.
So US sensitivity seems pretty justified to me, given the insanely large scale slavery was practiced on to the point where a dead minimum of about 20% and probably much higher of people in the US have ancestors (again often known, named ancestors, not ones "lost to the ages") who were chattel slaves, and the fact that we're talking about a situation where the grandchildren of chattel slaves are still alive right now. Hell, there are people in their 40s - my age! - whose grandparents were slaves (admittedly pretty much only where they had a father who had children very late in life, but...). Most often it's great-great-grandparents, but it's not a huge span of time.
Blackbirding was horrific, but the scale wasn't even 0.1% of the US slave trade, and it's interesting because it closely resembles modern slavery type situations in character, with the illicit nature, people being tricked into it (though as you say, force also used), and it trying to fly under the radar, as it were. I think there's a very real difference from the US experience, and that comparing it is not particularly revelatory. Chattel slavery of vast populations (perhaps 10 million survived passage, more were sent) shipped halfway across the world, and their descendants being a large fraction of the US population isn't really comparable to some tens of thousands of people tricked and/or kidnapped into forced labour (which was not permanent or generational). This isn't to say blackbirding isn't appalling, especially given how late it ran (into the 20th century as you say, and it's comparable to stuff that goes on today in a few countries), but it's a very different thing. Anyone eyerolling at the US because of blackbirding is... well... not being very thoughtful.
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LuisCarlos17f
Legend
If we are talking about History from the real world, you should rebember also the Irishs slavered by the wasps. And it is real in some places from the real life even in this current time.
It would be really ridiculous if slavery becomes a taboo in the TTRPGs but after this is showed in videogames or some new "sword & sandal" movie.
I feel bad when children are victims of violence in horror stories, but this doesn't mean it should be totally banned, but only any details shouldn't be told or showed. Slavery should can be showed in the RPGS, but as a something totally wrong what has to be reported and erradicated.
WotC is selling the ingredients, but after you use these to cook in the way you want. In your tabletop you can choose your style, more focused into the hope for a better tomorrow, or the fight against the darkness and misery to survive. The original DS was designed with the goal in the end, the happy end would arrive, but after a lot of blood, sweat and tears. Some things would be lost for ever, but the rebuilt would be possible.
The metaplot may be a great hook for a RPG as multimedia franchise, but also it may becomes a straitjacked for the player's creativity. Maybe the players would rather their PCs to be the heroes who defeat the big bad guy insted this by the characters from the official novel.
Maybe there is a planar portal from Athas to the Wildfey, but sorcerer-kings don't want to use it because this goes toward a domain of delight conquered and ruled by the formians. Other idea is there is other planegate from Athas to the elemental Limbo, but here there are a lot of domains ruled by dragon from the infernal planes (Let's guess if Ravenloft is within the Shadowfell and Witchlight within the Feywild, then Council of Wyrms/Chris Perkin's Iomandra will be about domains ruled by dragons within the elemental Limbo). Or the Deathlands suffer a planar invasion by elementals (followers of the elemental elder eye) totally inmune to the necrotic damage.
Don't you miss the Athasian genasies?
* Couldn't Kalidnay to return as a dark domain within Ravenloft?
It would be really ridiculous if slavery becomes a taboo in the TTRPGs but after this is showed in videogames or some new "sword & sandal" movie.
I feel bad when children are victims of violence in horror stories, but this doesn't mean it should be totally banned, but only any details shouldn't be told or showed. Slavery should can be showed in the RPGS, but as a something totally wrong what has to be reported and erradicated.
WotC is selling the ingredients, but after you use these to cook in the way you want. In your tabletop you can choose your style, more focused into the hope for a better tomorrow, or the fight against the darkness and misery to survive. The original DS was designed with the goal in the end, the happy end would arrive, but after a lot of blood, sweat and tears. Some things would be lost for ever, but the rebuilt would be possible.
The metaplot may be a great hook for a RPG as multimedia franchise, but also it may becomes a straitjacked for the player's creativity. Maybe the players would rather their PCs to be the heroes who defeat the big bad guy insted this by the characters from the official novel.
Maybe there is a planar portal from Athas to the Wildfey, but sorcerer-kings don't want to use it because this goes toward a domain of delight conquered and ruled by the formians. Other idea is there is other planegate from Athas to the elemental Limbo, but here there are a lot of domains ruled by dragon from the infernal planes (Let's guess if Ravenloft is within the Shadowfell and Witchlight within the Feywild, then Council of Wyrms/Chris Perkin's Iomandra will be about domains ruled by dragons within the elemental Limbo). Or the Deathlands suffer a planar invasion by elementals (followers of the elemental elder eye) totally inmune to the necrotic damage.
Don't you miss the Athasian genasies?
* Couldn't Kalidnay to return as a dark domain within Ravenloft?
Ruin Explorer
Legend
This is nonsense from a historical perspective, actually. It's a myth to the point it has a Wikipedia article. Please don't repeat conspiracy-theory-based myths, Luis.
Irish slaves myth - Wikipedia
The "WASPs" as you put it also enslaved a far larger number of other "WASPs" than they did Irish people. I mentioned this earlier in the thread. In the 1600s and 1700s, there were an awful lot of times when the majority of people coming in from the British isles were indentured servants - i.e. people enslaved, in theory for a fixed period of time, but in practice it didn't always work out that. Indeed some authors have suggested the majority of people who were indentured didn't actually live long enough to see the end of their indenture (though I would have difficulty substantiating that).
The whole thing ended because of a move towards using chattel slaves instead.
Indentured servitude in British America - Wikipedia
gorice
Hero
I won't get into the details with you here, not least because I have no head for details and no access to my old reference resources. In the interest of illumination rather than dispute, I do want to suggest a few points, though.
Firstly, the Romans and Greeks absolutely practised chattel slavery, in the sense of treating people as alienable property. Literary sources referring to the sale of slaves and their mass employment as manual labour make this clear. No doubt the situation of each slave was unique, practices changed over time, and Roman slavery was different from US slavery; but chattel slavery existed.
Secondly, yes, US slavery was unique and affected a tremendous number of people. The Atlantic slave trade, to which it was connected, also affected many, many people in different countries, something to which you alluded. There was a racial element to much of this, something which affected not only Americans.
In light of the above... Dark Sun's slavery clearly owes much to the Roman model (especially as presented in Sword & Sandals movies, which are honestly a more important consideration here than actual history), and, to me, statements about the problematic nature of depicting this type of slavery smack of American exceptionalism.
In an effort to make this productive: how, if at all, is it possible to address slavery in front of an audience that contains Americans, without it degenerating into arguments like the above?
LuisCarlos17f
Legend
Sorry, but my own experencie has taught me to untrust certain sources. You can show yours, but others can tell the opposite. We shouldn't forget the radical depopulation in Ireland by Cromwell. If the lives by those Ireshmen had been good, then we should have seen a demographic increase. I have see too many example of History and fiction being used for propaganda. Cromwell might be perfect as source of inspiration for a dark-lord in Ravenloft.
We shouldn't forget the slavery in the Muslim empires. Lots of Christian villages in the Mediterranean Seas was attacked by Otoman corsairs to catch slaves. This is the reason becuase in Spain we say "moors in the coast" as synonymous of signs of possible menaces.
And there is other way of slavery, the debts can't be paid for years or decades, even through generations. Jhon Adams, one of the presidents of USA said: "There are two ways to conquer and enslave a country. One is by the sword. The other is by debt."
In DS we might see something like the Greek Crypteia, a test for the new generation of warriors consisting in a periodic slaughter against the ilotas, the slaves. (Note: the ilotas were a D&D race of slaves in the sourcebook "the scarlet brotherhood".
en.wikipedia.org
* If you have played some strategic game you should realise if sorcerer-kings were too slaughters then their domains couldn't survive the demographic crisis. They need enough strability to get a enough number of skilled workers.
* Maybe the Athas we know is isolated in a "sacred timeline" and there are other Athas as parallel worlds where these aren't ruled by the sorcerer-kings, or some races survived the cleasing war, al least evacuating by means of spelljammers or crossing secret planar portals.
* In an alternate timeline Rajaat is a dark-lord and in his dark-domain the blue-age returned, but he can't enjoy, and there are a lot of no "pureblood".
We shouldn't forget the slavery in the Muslim empires. Lots of Christian villages in the Mediterranean Seas was attacked by Otoman corsairs to catch slaves. This is the reason becuase in Spain we say "moors in the coast" as synonymous of signs of possible menaces.
And there is other way of slavery, the debts can't be paid for years or decades, even through generations. Jhon Adams, one of the presidents of USA said: "There are two ways to conquer and enslave a country. One is by the sword. The other is by debt."
In DS we might see something like the Greek Crypteia, a test for the new generation of warriors consisting in a periodic slaughter against the ilotas, the slaves. (Note: the ilotas were a D&D race of slaves in the sourcebook "the scarlet brotherhood".
Crypteia - Wikipedia
* If you have played some strategic game you should realise if sorcerer-kings were too slaughters then their domains couldn't survive the demographic crisis. They need enough strability to get a enough number of skilled workers.
* Maybe the Athas we know is isolated in a "sacred timeline" and there are other Athas as parallel worlds where these aren't ruled by the sorcerer-kings, or some races survived the cleasing war, al least evacuating by means of spelljammers or crossing secret planar portals.
* In an alternate timeline Rajaat is a dark-lord and in his dark-domain the blue-age returned, but he can't enjoy, and there are a lot of no "pureblood".
teitan
Legend
No it was bad wrong fun. It punishes spellcasters to actually use the spelljammers to fly ships. It was way too silly. It was a cool idea poorly done and sold poorly for a variety of reasons.
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