Do chaotic gawds have paladins?

[fusangite]

I agree with DrNuncheon's position here. Better to employ some kind of universal holy warrior mechanic than try to universalize the paladin. There was a recent thread about paladins and sexuality that dealt pretty effectively with why Umbran and I are taking the position that we are regarding what kind of people paladins are. I don't especially want to rehash all the points made here but, for the Readers Digest condensed version, it goes like this:

Paladins are based on a particular idea of what it meant to be a holy warrior in Western Europe in the high medieval period (1050-1300). As such they are a problematic class if you take them out of this context. The paladin isn't really built as a generic holy warrior; if someone has done that task, better to use what they have built than try to stretch or squish the paladin into something it really isn't.

 

[Torm]

I don't necessarily think that the deity's alignment has to have anything to do with what they expect from their servants. Sune has been mentioned as an example, but no one has laid out WHY she has Paladins: She, herself, is chaotic, and much of her following is, as well, but there is more to Beauty than trying to BE beautiful - there is a need for others in her church to appreciate beauty, to defend it, to provide for it. And from some of THOSE members, she requires a very specific code of conduct and service in trade for their being allowed in the presence of such beauty.

For those of you who ever saw the video or thought about the lyrics for "Material Girl" by Madonna, you'll see exactly what I mean: She expects very specific behaviour out of her sugar daddies, but that doesn't mean SHE follows it. (Yes, I'm comparing Madonna to Sune. )

And surely this applies to other deities, too - they don't necessarily follow the rules they expect some of their followers to in the service of their purposes.

 

[velm]

I think all religions should have a holy warrior. These warriors are the ones on whom quests will fall upon. The cleric is a foot soldier, if you will, in the hierarchy of the church. It is the holy warrior who is part of an Elite corps of individuals.
Now, mostly in DND, and other games, the 'Paladin' has been LG, and has certain codes to which they have to follow. This character is based on Aurthurian myths. The knight in shining armor and so on.
As the article from 1st ed Dragon said, the 'paladins' from other religions would have their own code to follow. They would have their own set of ideals. I just do NOT like the fact that only LG churchs, in standard DND, can have a holy warrior.
Now, some may argue that a 'chaotic' person would not being able to live by a code. But that I disagree with, take for example, the movie 'Pirates of the Caribean'. (yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. but i liked it. just bear with this.) Once 'Parlay' was said, it was followed, even though they were pirates. Now, later on, it was mentioned that it was just guidelines and only applied to pirates, but it was still followed. A CG person can still follow certain guidelines and still be CG. Take for example, if a guideline for a CG paladin is to be up at the first rays of the sun. Would that be so hard to do? probably not, what is so tough about always taking the REV watch when in a party? Hey, they are up at the first rays of the sun. They can still be chaotic. I am sure there are other guidlines can be made as well, just with a little DM inspiration.

 

[Umbran]

I think all religions should have a holy warrior.

Yes, but, as has been noted, the paladin is not necessarily linked to a religion. The paladin need not follow a god at all. If not all paladins need gods, why should all gods need paladins (or an equivalent)?

This gets even more odd when you thik that not all religions have churches, or church organizations. Or "elite corps" of troops serving them. I would normally expect only a few religions to have such, rather than every single one.

A CG person can still follow certain guidelines and still be CG.

Yes, but the paladin code isn't a guideline. It is a set of hard and fast rules that the paladin does not get to violate at all. And that hard restriction on behavior makes the paladin's life difficult, and is thus part of the balance of the class. A guideline that ou can toss asdie occasionally just isn't the same.

 

[TroyXavier]

All religions do have holy warriors, they're called clerics.

 

[velm]

Yes, but, as has been noted, the paladin is not necessarily linked to a religion. The paladin need not follow a god at all. If not all paladins need gods, why should all gods need paladins (or an equivalent)?

This gets even more odd when you thik that not all religions have churches, or church organizations. Or "elite corps" of troops serving them. I would normally expect only a few religions to have such, rather than every single one.

Yes, but the paladin code isn't a guideline. It is a set of hard and fast rules that the paladin does not get to violate at all. And that hard restriction on behavior makes the paladin's life difficult, and is thus part of the balance of the class. A guideline that ou can toss asdie occasionally just isn't the same.

Religion, alignment, they are USUALLY one of the same. Are they always, maybe not, but for the most part, they are. If a character follows a CG religion, odds are that character will be CG. I paladin needs to follow a religion, at least the LG one, to receive the spells, and other benefits. Otherwise, how do they get them? Turn undead, does that LG turn undead due his charming good looks? NO, through divine powers granted to them via a god.
Why would any religion have a need for a paladin, or paladin like character? To take quests and smite wrongs done to that religion. The paladin is a combination of fighter/cleric. hit points of the fighter, as well as base attacks and so on with some minor spell caster abilities. Would a quest always need a paladin? it would depend on the quest, but for the most part, I would say yes. A quest could be anything, say, a thief or rival church desecrated a NG church and stole an artifact. It might be on the shoulders of that NG paladin to retrieve it.
IF the guidlines are broken, or not followed, then obviously, that character loses his status as a paladin and has to atone the same way a LG would have to.
The 'holy warriors' of a church are indeed the run of the mill clerics, however, like I said, the Paladin is an 'elite' member of that church.
Just like with the LG version, you will NOT see hordes of paladins of other religions/alignments running around. They will STILL be just as rare as the LG one.

 

[Turjan]

Paladins are based on a particular idea of what it meant to be a holy warrior in Western Europe in the high medieval period (1050-1300). As such they are a problematic class if you take them out of this context. The paladin isn't really built as a generic holy warrior; if someone has done that task, better to use what they have built than try to stretch or squish the paladin into something it really isn't.

The point is that constructing a paladin for a CG deity does not necessarily take the paladin out of this traditional context, but may sit right in the middle of it. Let's just reflect on the example Sune. She stands for beauty, love, passion. The latter is not to be seen in a narrow sense, but encompasses also the protection of everything beautiful. In this regard, a paladin in the role of this protector makes perfect sense to me, bringing the medieval ideal of chivalry to religious heights.

Even from the view of a chaotic deity everything makes sense in this case. A protector of good and beauty is something she is in need of. And lets not forget that chaos lastly encompasses everything: the LG facet in the rows of Sune's worshipers even adds to the variegated side of her character.

 

[Felix]

Umbran:

Fair enough, he consorts with Evil and he loses his powers, but he can consort with Chaos. What if he doesn't know about the evilness? Put this way:

Hextor has a great PR department. He wants to enhance public opinion for him so he equips 20 or so devotees of Hextor (use experts here, not clerics or blackguards what with their Aura of Evil) to begin the endoctrination of young folks into the beneficient Hextor fold, and fashions a Brotherhood of Paladins of Hextor. Hextor uses these troops as his front line in the fight against Chaos, both Good and Evil.

Yeah, OK, so that doesn't wash very well, but it can still be rationalized, even if its tougher than rationalizing Paladins of Chaos like velm has done. I think both rationalizations are specious.

I think all religions should have a holy warrior.

Who says they don't?

Why does Holy Warrior of XXX have to be a base class, and who says any class can't be a holy warrior? Shoot, even a wizard can have faith and fight in the ranks of crusading armies. What keeps a fighter, ranger, or even a bloody bard from being holy? All they have to do is have faith, prosthelyze (sp?), and lead people.

Want a more martial cleric? Multiclass with Fighter. With Improved Toughness.

Want a more esoteric priest? Give him all expert levels and choose skills that reflect contemplation. He can even qualify for the Contemplative PrC eventually.

Want a Friar Tuck type? Ranger levels.

Don't constrain yourself to thinking that if there isn't a base class for it, that it must not exist.

 

[Undead Pete]

Are you referring to the article in Dragon 106, "A Plethora of Paladins"?

That's exactly what I was thinking of...

The stats are in 1E, so you have to do a lot of modification, but the descriptions of different types of paladins can still be used. The chaotic paladins were the Garath (CG) and the Fantra (CN). The 1E stats are on the link above.

Jeez, 1st Edition. I guess I'm really dating myself here. I have been gaming for 22 years, though.

 

[Driddle]

"Divine power protects the paladin and gives her special powers..." yada yada yada...

Although the rules do not explicitly state that a paladin is tied to any particular deity, it is reasonable to assume such.

I cannot imagine that Olidammara, a chaotic neutral gawd of wine, women and song, a consummate prankster, would appreciate paladins of his faith acting in a lawful manner. Just doesn't make sense.