Do Diviners make sense as PCs?

[brcarl]

Given that most D&D plots center around a duplicitous NPCs, undiscovered knowledge, and/or hidden items, do player characters focused on divination magic make sense?

Actions like "I Detect Thoughts on the warden while Rorgar questions him," and "I perform the Divination ritual to find out who the murderer is," and "I cast Detect Location on the missing wands" seem to completely short-circuit the whole play-it-out methodology that makes up most adventures.

Granted, the examples I list above are expected from time to time given your normal wizard and cleric spell selection. I'm talking about a player who wants to run a character that specializes in divination magic, and thus uses it all the time.

Has anyone DMed or played in a group with a "diviner"? How did it work out? What did the DM do to help make the PC fun to play but still not be a "cut to the chase" device?

 

[the Jester]

There's an epic level cohort diviner/divine oracle (with a few other levels thrown in) imc. He adds a fantastic amount of effectiveness to the party. He's a lean mean buffing machine.

Nothing wrong with the pcs being good at what they do. If you're running a high-level dnd game, you had better be ready for the pcs to short circuit your plans via divinations, teleportation magic and other such things all the time. High-level pcs can learn virtually anything and go virtually anywhere and do virtually anything. It's simply a part of high-level play (unless, of course, you drastically restructure some of the game's assumptions, like eing able to play a full caster).

To make a challenging information gathering scenario at high levels, you need to use layers of misdirection and deception. If the party captures a would-be assassin, he can't tell you Gimble hired him if Gimble was disguised as Tordek at the time. Better yet, if Gimble hired someone to hire the assassin, there's another layer to pierce. Also, if the pcs don't know what questions to ask, they will have a harder time finding the answers they seek.

Still, count on a lot of time and effort being spent by the party of finding out what they are going to be facing and preparing for it.

By the way- there is absolutely no reason, imho, that divination should get special favors when it comes to being a specialist.

 

[Paradigm]

Has anyone DMed or played in a group with a "diviner"? How did it work out? What did the DM do to help make the PC fun to play but still not be a "cut to the chase" device?

I did, and was one of the most effective PCs in the group, both in combat and out of combat. None of the Divination spells are perfect information gathering spells. Even the biggest have failure rates and the outright possibility that the entity you are asking just doesn't know.

 

[Felix]

I ran a Diviner a few years ago; a real creepy type. LN, bordering on E.

The biggest problem was that as a Wizard, I was best when I knew the challenges I was going to be facing. It made a difference if a Sorc was coming after me or a horde of 1HD Kobolds. And a Diviner doesn't have many spellslots to spend on offensive, defensive, and utility spells. So it meant that I used my Divination powers to find out where, when and what was going to happen to us. I also made frequent use of the Wizard's ability to leave spell slots open to fill in later on in the day, just in case we needed a "Knock" spell, for example.

Anyway, the biggest problem was that this slowed the pace of the game down. It made sense as a player that this is exactly what my character would do to survive, but it didn't help that I *felt* the annoyance growing from the DM, the other players, and even me, about this pacing issue.

But whenever I returned the pace of the game back to "normal", I felt like my character was being rushed and likely use the first opportunity to get the hell out of dodge, and come back with a bigger boat.

That being said, I was horrifically useful when it came to utility stuff. Divination is the most powerful school, used properly of course, because you know when to apply your Abjuration, Evocation, and Necromancy spells to the greatest effect.

 

[el-remmen]

My next campaign will likely have two diviners - though one will have a level or two of fighter.

 

[Endur]

Has anyone DMed or played in a group with a "diviner"? How did it work out? What did the DM do to help make the PC fun to play but still not be a "cut to the chase" device?

Personally, I think the Diviner PC is going to want to find an extra source of divination spells. Not many Divination spells in the PHB.

 

[GrolloStoutfoam]

IMO divination/teleportation can muck up a DM if they cannot adapt or at least plan for the characters to try and "skip to the end".

While not playing a specialized diviner, I am playing a 7th Wi/5th LM with *heavy* emphasis on divination. I am playing the only wizard (every one else are druids or druid/rangers, seriously) and came into the campaign at a later date.

The DM was used to heavy slash/blast combats, which we still have but where before he was worried about TPK, now he is trying to figure out how to challenge us. All because of the information gathering and spell transportation we can now use.

He was stunned when his last semi-BBEG went down in his sleep all because of the spell Dream. I knew when he went to sleep, scryed, ported and CDG'ed.

Having run campaigns before (not 3.5 and not this high a level), I always countered divination magic with mundane tactics. Play the bad guys smart, after all bad guys do not grow up to be BBEG if everyone knows they are the bad guy.

My suggestions:
1. BBEG always hires people to hire people who do the hiring, that way the mook cannot give up the boss. Not perfect but will delay the party and add levels of intrigue.
2. BBEG should not be revealed by low-level magic (most of the time), they should always have nondetection running unless the DM wants a BBEG appearance for effect.
3. BBEG should bluff better than the party. Party scrys, see BBEG. BBEG notices and makes a beckoning gesture. "I see you...come and play". Should give a (smart) party pause and at least gives the BBEG a heads up trouble is on it's way. If he cannot prepare in time, then have him retreat (magically even) to a pre-prepared spot so anyone following will be in for nasty surprises.
4. Speaking of magical transport, there are spells that will block/misdirect parties that try and teleport in. Every BBEG should have a warded sanctum to call home. Hell they should have it blocked from scrying as well, unless baiting the party. I once DM'ed a party who scryed on the BBEG wizard only to find him standing over his scrying pool. Guess who was shown in the pool.

Edit: Few more suggestions. Timing - my character does most of his divinations out-of-game and over email, this helps a lot with not slowing the game down and I am nice enough to give my DM a heads up as to what I am trying to do and not put him on the spot. Also the only material I am currently working with are the spells out of the PHB. We do have other source books in use but have to find those spells/feats/items in game. Makes it a lot of fun. So it will help you prepare if you know what kind of divinations this character will be able to use.

 

[nittanytbone]

Every one of my wizards is a diviner in 3.5. Only having to give up one school is great, and certainly you can find useful spells at every level to memorize every day, even if its only "Truestrike" or "Detect Thoughts."

Divination spells help directly in combat (truestrike), indirectly by knowing what you'll be facing, and in utility/social situations.

Also, as mentioned, Divine Orcale is a great PrC (evasion without losing caster levels with your D4 HD? yes please!)

Mechanically, its great. Concept wise, it has some rough spots -- mainly in slowing down the session and frustrating other players. If you can handle your info-gathering between sessions via a face-to-face meeting or email or something, that reduces a lot of friction.

 

[Gadget]

Looking at the PH, I just don't see that many 'plot spoiling' Div spell until fairly high level. I mean, there's detect thought at 2nd level, but it has a will save and you have to know who to question. Most of the rest are tactical in nature. Locate object and Locate creature are limted to a few hundred feet, maybe close to a thousand at higher levels. That isn't going to help you locate the king's crown jewels unless you were there within a minute or two of the theft. Clairaudience / Clairvoyence may be useful in a skullduggery or spy type game, but once again the limited range makes it more tactical/scouting than anything.

It isn't until scry becomes available that things really get interesting. It pays to note that the casting time is 1 hour. That is pretty steep even for outside of combat. It isn't until the greater version comes online at 8th level that it becames less combersome. Even then, there are various means of countering, both magical and mundane (usinge a disguise, secret Identity, double blind dealings with underlings).

As for real plot busters, I only see the following:

contact other plane 5th level - can recieve very cryptic answers if one gets truthful answers at all, you have to know the right questions to ask, difficult or dangerous to cast.

Legend Lore (level 6)- must have the person, object at hand or be in the right place, or extremely difficult and tiresome to cast. Not to mention the loooong casting time. Have to have detailed information to begin with and know enough about subject and its importance to cast the spell in the first place.

Vision (level 7) - an much more usable version of Legend Lore. Can still be cryptic.

Discern Location (level 8) - The big one, but must have had personal contact with subject. But at this level Mind blank starts to come into play.

So, I don't see anything that plot-shattering here, at least not until a very high level, and even then, there are counters. Most of the Wiz/Sor divinations are tactical buff/debuff/scouting. If the party always has time to--not only send an Arcane eye floating out in front, but based on the spell's findings--ready a load of preperations for every encounter, something seems wrong. Likewise, if the True Seeing foils the polymorphed villian's disguise, maybe the villian needs a little better plan. Besides, the diviner should get some rewards for wisely using his abilities, and not be constantly thwarted at every turn by an overly 'plot' conscious DM.

 

[grimwell]

One of the few chances I've had to game as a player since the advent of 3.0/3.5 was as a Diviner specialist. I took him thinking that it would be a challenge to keep such a non-combat-focused character alive. At each (spell) level, I took one attack spell, and as many divinations as I could find/research. Spells beyond divination and attacks were chosen for utility (get me in/out), and defense (abjurations, etc. to make me less squishy).

My mid-term goal was to become a Loremaster (who better than a Diviner to do this?). By the time I was able to join the ranks of the Loremasters with this character, I had an attack spell in each element, and a good number of defense/utility spells (prot. from missiles, etc.). When the party was in combat, I'd put most of my effort into putting up my defenses and then attacking with precision (choose enemies and support the fighters by protecting their flanks, etc.). Outside of combat I did all kinds of research and item creation. Played a very helpful personality and did everything possible to help the other characters first (sometimes you gotta play the altruist).

By the time the campaign ended, the characters were in their early double digit levels, and when I was prepared for the fight, I was able to go toe to toe with demons and hold them off until the calvary could bail me out.

I did deliberately avoid using my divination spells to break major elements of the game for the DM in question, and we talked about it a lot outside of the game sessions. I think that was the key to success, I wanted the DM to be able to run a great game, and he wanted me to have a good place in that game, so we worked as a team to make sure the character I played could work without working too well.

I had a blast in the end. It was far more fun to play a wizard who would panic and scream "Demon over here! I need some help! Guys! Guys!" after zapping the Demon with a lightning bolt. I wasn't worthless on paper, but my guy wasn't interested in plane hopping and fighting the great evils -- he just didn't have a choice (once you know about a demon invasion, you just gotta do something...)

I think the player/DM agreement is/was the most important element to ensure success.