Do Diviners make sense as PCs?

[Aus_Snow]

I'm currently playing my second 3e Diviner: human, sans Necromancy this time; Ghost Elf, sans Evocation last time. He doesn't seem to be over- or underpowered, or disruptive to the campaign for that matter.

So no, I don't really see a problem, in practice. In theory, I kind of get the concern. But yeah, my experiences differ.

 

[irishfast]

I'm currently playing my second 3e Diviner: human, sans Necromancy this time; Ghost Elf, sans Evocation last time. He doesn't seem to be over- or underpowered, or disruptive to the campaign for that matter.

So no, I don't really see a problem, in practice. In theory, I kind of get the concern. But yeah, my experiences differ.

taking necromancy as the restricted school is easily the best starting move a diviner can make.

 

[Felix]

taking necromancy as the restricted school is easily the best starting move a diviner can make.

Why? But of course, before I can let you answer that , I must say:

I disagree.

There are many necromantic spells that can assist in a wizard's endeavors to find things out, Magic Jar springs to mind, and to aid in their general survival (False Life).

Also, I don't think that there is any particular reason that Divination and Necromancy should be diametrically opposed schools for flavor reasons. The diviner I played and mentioned previously was a Diviner by class, Necromancer by inclination, Biologist by hobby, and Taxidermist by profession. He was trying to find the source of "Life"; the study of Death, and Life's photo-negative Undeath, provided a perspective on what exactly "Life" was.

I chose Enchantment as my banned school because I felt like that school alters the perceptions of life, but not the Truth of it. Though I suppose Illusion could be banned for similar flavor reasons, my Diviner dabbled in Illusion because of Shadow's relationship with the undead.

 

[paradox42]

My next campaign will likely have two diviners - though one will have a level or two of fighter.

Diviner/Fighters can be vicious- Even one level of Diviner makes a Fighter far more dangerous than before. Give a melee monkey armed with a Greatsword True Strike and watch him go full Power Attack on every charge he makes, as the most obvious example.

Can you tell I had a player try this combo once?

Oh, and as an example from somebody else's campaign- isn't Mostin the Metagnostic from Sepulchrave's game a Diviner (at least, as the class he was before Alienist)? I thought I read that in the Story Hour.

 

[Felix]

Give a melee monkey armed with a Greatsword True Strike and watch him go full Power Attack on every charge he makes, as the most obvious example.

This does work better with a level of Sorcerer, though. Shield as the other spell, when he finds the spare Standard Action to cast it.

isn't Mostin the Metagnostic from Sepulchrave's game a Diviner (at least, as the class he was before Alienist)? I thought I read that in the Story Hour.

He is; he eschewed Necromancy.

 

[Choranzanus]

By the way- there is absolutely no reason, imho, that divination should get special favors when it comes to being a specialist.

I agree with that. In fact every time I read this part I am reminded that wizards in D&D are not wizards of mythology. In mythology, divination is considered an indispensable and the most powerful part of any wizard. It is pretty obvious why: they know all of your weakneses and are not there when you are ready to fight them, but might as well be ready when you are not. They can easily evade you or just kill you. Even if you can fight the wizard with a sword, they are better swordsman than you, because they know every move you make before you make it. The most powerful can reach even into your mind. No piece of information is safe before a wizard. You don't call them WISard for nothing. In the end information is everything.

D&D could do a lot better to reflect this kind of wizards.

I cannot comment much on the mechanical side of divination, except that there should be a lot more spells to become a full school. However I can tell you that diviners make a lot more interesting villains than any blast mage can ever hope to be. The PCs will soon hate the day when they even THOUGHT about facing him.

 

[irishfast]

Why? But of course, before I can let you answer that , I must say:

I disagree.

There are many necromantic spells that can assist in a wizard's endeavors to find things out, Magic Jar springs to mind, and to aid in their general survival (False Life).

Also, I don't think that there is any particular reason that Divination and Necromancy should be diametrically opposed schools for flavor reasons. The diviner I played and mentioned previously was a Diviner by class, Necromancer by inclination, Biologist by hobby, and Taxidermist by profession. He was trying to find the source of "Life"; the study of Death, and Life's photo-negative Undeath, provided a perspective on what exactly "Life" was.

I chose Enchantment as my banned school because I felt like that school alters the perceptions of life, but not the Truth of it. Though I suppose Illusion could be banned for similar flavor reasons, my Diviner dabbled in Illusion because of Shadow's relationship with the undead.

it's not that they are diametrically opposed so much as it is that for a rog/diviner, necromancy has the fewest useful spells. this is not to say that there are no useful spells in there; of course ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion, and enervation are great for any magic user, especially one who is good at ranged touch attacks like a rog/diviner. but by the same token, you have to look at what you'd be giving up by restricting another school.

evocation is right out. one of the great things about knowing what's coming is the ability to do something about it, and the evocation school has some of the most powerful offensive spells in the game.

transmutation is a must-have also. the ability to change yourself and others fits right into the role of the infiltrating rog/diviner. no question on this one, either.

abjuration is necessary for the various protection spells it offers. leaving a spell slot open so you can take 15 minutes to memorize a defensive spell after you've scryed out the enemy's encampment will win you many friends in your party, especially after you cast protection from energy on your front-line fighter when you've seen that the big baddie has a flame-tongue sword. sure, you can get along without abjuration, but do you really want to?

for an infiltrator, there can be nothing more important than the schools of illusion and enchantment. invisibility, charm person & monster, displacement, hold person, and the various image spells are vital for someone trying to get into places he shouldn't be. along with alter self from trans, disguse self is great for "dressing up" as someone else and ferretting out some info: just think of that crappy movie Face-Off and you'll see what i mean.

conjuration is the only borderline school in my book. the summons and fogs are nice, but not vital. the only reason i like conjuration for a rog/diviner is that it offers easy escape options with dimension door and teleport. after all, what fun is it if you can't get out of the messes you're going to get yourself into?

...of course, this is all going on my assumption that a diviner with a few (3-5) levels of rogue is the ultimate expression of an adventuring diviner. that, of course, is a topic for a different debate, but i still think that for the average adventuring diviner, necromancy is the clear choice for a restricted school. sure, you can make a very useable build with restricting another school, like the character you mentioned (nice, very unique), but i don't think it's the most efficient all-around choice.

 

[irishfast]

so i guess no one cares about simple, core classes enough to comment on this thread; they'd rather ask and answer BS questions on overpowered, nit-picking subjects like gestalts, psionics, 5ft steps (read the damn books!), and angels that shouldn't be allowed as races.

fine.

if your DMs allow these kinds of things, then you're playing the wrong game.

 

[shilsen]

so i guess no one cares about simple, core classes enough to comment on this thread; they'd rather ask and answer BS questions on overpowered, nit-picking subjects like gestalts, psionics, 5ft steps (read the damn books!), and angels that shouldn't be allowed as races.

fine.

if your DMs allow these kinds of things, then you're playing the wrong game.

Wha-? The thread has 26 comments to the OP before yours, most of them fairly expansive and helpful. Where lies the problem?

 

[Klaus]

The Eberron novel In the Claws of the Tiger, by James Wyatt, features a diviner elf as one of the PCs (the others being a human fighter/paladin, a dwarf artificer and a human rogue/extreme explorer). He does some fairly extensive reconaissance, and won't go anywhere without Leomund's Secure Shelter prepared.