Do Diviners make sense as PCs?

[irishfast]

hey, look... turns out i can get a thread started back up again...

never let it be said that trolling doesn't work

 

[KarinsDad]

IMC, because they're rarely fighting the enemies with really good info about them. Those enemies tend to be very hard to defeat.

Precisely. The enemy who really knows the PCs and their tactics should be the rare exception, not the rule. Otherwise, the PCs should often lose as opposed to win and that does not make for a very lengthy duration game with the same PCs.

When I read that PC tactics will eventually become known, I find the comment suspect.

I personally often have NPCs do things that will screw them, but which make sense because they don't know what special abilities and spells the PCs have. And better informed NPCs don't make such errors

Accurate and solid information is often hard to come by and even really well informed NPCs can make huge errors.

For example, I recently ran a combat where the NPCs were going to ambush the PCs. They knew the PCs were going to attack and had an extensive counterattack prepared, but even with previously cast Divination type spells, they did not know exactly when the PCs were going to attack. So, they prepared accordingly.

The PCs, on the other hand, had cast a Divination spell (first time ever) and got a clue that "The best way to avoid an ambush is to ambush the ambushers". So, two of the PCs Dimension Doored while Flying and Invisible into the heart of the Temple complex. The Dragon was immediately aware of them (and the other minions were quickly aware of them), but the High Priest was asleep on a cot next to the altar (even human priests have to sleep sometime). Who was asleep (or even if anyone was asleep) was totally random (underground complex where night and day did not really matter to the occupants).

By the time the priest woke up, the combat was already mostly over. He lost 3 rounds of actions due to being asleep (and due to a conveniently cast Silence spell by one of the flying PCs). If he had been awake the entire time, it would have been an extremely serious encounter. Instead, the PCs pretty much mopped up the floor with the NPCs.

Not because the NPC plan was terrible (it was actually pretty nasty), but because the first casualty (PC or NPC) of any battle is the plan.

This same combat could have just as easily been a total disaster for the PCs if the High Priest had been awake and the PCs had for that first round or so been totally split apart combined with bad dice rolls instead of good ones.


The point is not only that it is difficult to discern the standard tactics of one's enemies ahead of time (PC or NPC), but even when one has foreknowledge of an event (like a battle) or of enemy tactics, the necessities of the moment often immediately outweigh many preparations that one side or the other has made based on the knowledge of those tactics.

It's the nature of the beast. DMs (and hence NPCs) are not truly omniscient (and able to plan for every possible PC tactic or even most PC tactics) unless the DM "cheats" (e.g. the NPC makes the save, even though the DM rolled a one) or "fudges" and has the NPCs react perfectly on the spur of the moment (e.g. the NPC just happens to have the precise spell memorized that saves the NPC from certain death at the hands of the PCs to fight another day, even though the DM never wrote down that the NPC even knew that spell in the first place, etc.).

 

[Plane Sailing]

As a DM I *love* it when there is a diviner or bard or other information gatherer in the party. It gives me so many ways to give the party additional information, which makes the game more fun and interesting.

What's not to like

 

[Plane Sailing]

hey, look... turns out i can get a thread started back up again...

never let it be said that trolling doesn't work

Actually, trolling makes you look bad and can, in some circumstances, get you banned. I would most strongly advise against it.

I don't think anyone started contributing to this thread again because of your rude post, it was despite it.

Regards

 

[Henry]

Typically, the PCs have a horrendous time finding out tactics of enemies. Sometimes it is because they do not know who their enemies are, or where to find them, or by the time they find out who they are, they are already fighting them, etc.

Unless the DM drops clues like gumdrops, all of the campaigns I have been in required that the PCs work hard in order to acquire significant knowledge like BBEG tactics.

Even then, I cannot recall a single session where significant BBEG tactics were actually discovered (the BBEG lives in a fortress with xyz defenses, etc.).

Really? In our last Eberron game, both the PCs and the Villains scried each other REPEATEDLY before final confrontations. The PCs got the idea because the villains were doing it to them. In my games, if the PCs take the time to engage in scouting, scrying, gathering info, they find info about resources, forces arrayed, tactics, etc. If they don't bother, they take what they get, sometimes VERY strong opposition.

In one situation, one Ethereal artificer took out a party of FIVE NPCs of two levels below him by himself, because the villains were caught off guard and had no divinations up (he used Superior Invisibility, and WASTED them one after the other. By the time the villains had figured out what was going on, and cast their true seeings, over half were dead, and only two escaped.

In the final conflict of the campaign, the PCs scouted the villains up to three rooms ahead in a dangerous demonic palace, before confronting them. The final fight saw the heroes surprised because the demons they faced had true seeing inherently, unknown to them, and walked right into a trap. However, because they used scrying, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), and were loaded for battle beforehand, they still turned a really bad ambush into a victory. Had they not been prepared, they would have lost given arrayed forces.

So in my experirence, prep and divination is only as useful as the DM allows it to be, and if the DM is prepared to handle it, the players can find it all the sweeter when a plan DOES go off well.

It's the nature of the beast. DMs (and hence NPCs) are not truly omniscient (and able to plan for every possible PC tactic or even most PC tactics) unless the DM "cheats" (e.g. the NPC makes the save, even though the DM rolled a one) or "fudges" and has the NPCs react perfectly on the spur of the moment (e.g. the NPC just happens to have the precise spell memorized that saves the NPC from certain death at the hands of the PCs to fight another day, even though the DM never wrote down that the NPC even knew that spell in the first place, etc.).

Correct; that's why the PC artificer succeeded so brilliantly against the five villains, because he was prepped and they weren't, and that's what I planned for. In another situation, however, the same player surprised me totally; He faced down a beholder, and while the rest of the party distracted it, shot it with an antimagic ray while his central eye was focused elsewhere. It caught ME flat-footed (not the beholder), and in the end he had eagles from a SUMMON MONSTER II chase down the slow beholder, running for its life, and they clawed it to death. One 7th level spell, and the beholder might as well have failed a finger of death save, because it would have been a quicker death.

On the other hand, they were the ones who miscalc'ed when the common ethereal/superior invisibility tactics they had used backfired on them, because of the demons' inherent properties. However, it was to be a hard fight -- they were facing a cabal of the Lords of Dust, and stopping the release of a Rajah. Even then, they used teamwork, and it showed.

 

[irishfast]

Actually, trolling makes you look bad and can, in some circumstances, get you banned. I would most strongly advise against it.

I don't think anyone started contributing to this thread again because of your rude post, it was despite it.

Regards

you're quite the tight-ass, aren't you?


what's the matter, get beat up too much in high school?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, irishfast can't say he wasn't warned before he was banned.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

irishfast
you're quite the tight-ass, aren't you?


what's the matter, get beat up too much in high school?

In-freakin-credible!

Where does someone buy brass ones that big?

 

[Al'Kelhar]

Looking at the PH, I just don't see that many 'plot spoiling' Div spell until fairly high level. I mean, there's detect thought at 2nd level, but it has a will save and you have to know who to question. Most of the rest are tactical in nature. Locate object and Locate creature are limted to a few hundred feet, maybe close to a thousand at higher levels. That isn't going to help you locate the king's crown jewels unless you were there within a minute or two of the theft. Clairaudience / Clairvoyence may be useful in a skullduggery or spy type game, but once again the limited range makes it more tactical/scouting than anything.

It isn't until scry becomes available that things really get interesting. It pays to note that the casting time is 1 hour. That is pretty steep even for outside of combat. It isn't until the greater version comes online at 8th level that it becames less combersome. Even then, there are various means of countering, both magical and mundane (usinge a disguise, secret Identity, double blind dealings with underlings).

...

Having played a diviner from 7th to 12th level, and just preparing to start a new one at 5th level, I should also point out that many divinations have prohibitively high casting times in relation to their durations. Scry as pointed out above, 1 hour casting time for 1 min/level duration; clairaudience/clairvoyance 10 minute casting time for 1 min/level duration. Better hope that you pick the right second to start casting your spell if you want to catch the BBEG discussing his Secret Plan for World Domination (tm) with his faithful lieutenant. Scry needs an expensive, bulky and fragile focus, too. This means that the better divinations can rarely be done "on adventure".

IMO, diviners should drop the illusion school, as the least-cost loss to their flexibility.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[pallandrome]

Also, look into a spelltouched feat called Live My Nightmare.

Basically, every time the character tries to scry the villain, it's a free Phantasmal Killer cast at the player. If you wanna be nice, fudge the roll the first time to make sure the character lives. This'll make them a lot more wary about using scrying magic DIRECTLY on the opposition, and force the player to think of more creative solutions to their problems.