Do Diviners make sense as PCs?

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I think the diviner's effectiveness as a PC is pretty much determined by the way the DM and player handles it. Divination, IMO, shouldn't be a question and answer period where the truth is laid bare simply b/c you asked the right questions. I think good use of divination requires the DM to come up with cryptic (but helpful) answers. That can be a pretty tall order so many DMs simply revert to yes/no answers which kind of waters down divination IMO.

It's like the bard. Or any type of political intrigue character. The usefulness depends on the DM and the type of campaign.

IMC, I try to get players to tell me beforehand when they are going to be casting major divination spells (or I put off the answers if it isn't immediately necessary) so I can come up with better answers. The story/campaign benefits as a result.

 

[Thurbane]

Back in the days of 2E, I was in a party with a PC Diviner. The DM even catered for it, offering up extremely useful tidbits and clues through his spells.

Problem was the player liked to run the character as "Mister Enigma", and generally sat on the info he got, not sharing it with the party.

In short, a good Divination based character can be extremely useful to a party, if they chose to be, that is...

 

[taliesin15]

I think the diviner's effectiveness as a PC is pretty much determined by the way the DM and player handles it...

...which in my mind should pretty much be the end of the debate. IMC currently running, there's a newbie playing an elf wizard specializing in divination running with a ranger and a druid and a couple of others, and it seems like a very effective combination. Especially since their major NPC ally is a high level Bard--this makes a potent combo for investigation on most fronts--outdoor, urban, dungeon (they aren't high enough level for extra-planar, to say the least)

one matter that I would like to raise is the absence of divination separate from spell casting per se. There's no real mechanic for common sorts of divination like augury, reading the stars, and suchlike, and it doesn't seem like that standard spell-centric aesthetic really compares well with such systems. I intend to implement some ad hoc into my game to see how it flies, but if anyone has any ideas on that, by all means, let's hear them.

One divination process that has been entirely shunted over to spells is the use of Scrying. Albeit, that is a very involved process, and might as well involve the usual AD&D magic mechanic as historical personages like Dr. John Dee and Edward Kelley did spend quite a bit of time invoking archangels and the like before summoning spirits with the shewstone.

 

[nameless]

It's been said already, but Diviner is one of the most powerful speciality schools, mainly because you give up so little. And yes, detect thoughts is incredibly powerful as only a 2nd level spell when used properly. Even the most careful BBEG will get revealed pretty quickly when all of his live-captured minions are helpless to reveal who and where their boss is.

When it comes down to it, information is the most valuable resource; there is no challenge you can't overcome with the right information. My last diviner became the most renowned and powerful wizard in the world by level 12, even though there were lots of higher level wizards running around, simply because he knew enough to play the players and always have an ace in the hole. And have a really impressive floating tower. You want to make sure you have an impressive wizard's tower.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Just get a ring of mind shielding and that oh so impressive diviner becomes not so impressive after all.

 

[irishfast]

one of the largest problems i have found with the diviner (and most other wizards) is knowing ahead of time what spells you'll need. this problem is even more profound with a diviner, because while their spells tend to be more useful than spells from other schools, they are usually more dependent on being used at the right times.

i played a rog/diviner, and i still think that that is the best combo for a PC diviner that's going to on the battlefield. you use your rogue skills to bump up your listen, spot, hide, move silently, and maybe disable device or open locks, or face skills, depending on your party makeup. when possible, you use move silently and hide to scout ahead and see first hand what's going on. an amulet of nondetection helps a great deal, here. when you can't sneak about, casting spells is your next option. also, the 1st level spell True Strike is vital for the battlefield rog/diviner, as it allows him to utilize his meager selection of offensive spells to great effect (scorching ray, for example).

if your party has another rogue, work out between the two of you who is going to beef up their techincal skills and who will go to town on their face skills. the two rogues do well up front, using steath and spells to hide themselves and find out what's ahead. having good face skills also lets you rely less on spells that allow a save when dealing with situations out of combat. having good technical skills lets you find and defeat traps, locks, and other mechanical devices, thereby saving your spells for later use.

with a little tweaking, and a lot of patience, the battlefield rog/diviner can be one of the most powerful support characters in the game, letting everyone know what's coming and how to deal with it. DMs are often unprepared for this, and if they don't think ahead, it's their loss.

 

[Felix]

i played a rog/diviner...

The Unseen Seer PrC from Complete Mage takes this idea and runs with it. Though it is similar in some ways to the Arcane Trickster, where the AT seems to go for more Sneak Attack and mechanics (Open Lock, Disable Device), the US is more scouting and infiltration flavored.

 

[shilsen]

Just get a ring of mind shielding and that oh so impressive diviner becomes not so impressive after all.

You realize it only protects against alignment detection, detect thoughts and detect lies, right? Other forms of divination work just fine.

 

[irishfast]

The Unseen Seer PrC from Complete Mage takes this idea and runs with it. Though it is similar in some ways to the Arcane Trickster, where the AT seems to go for more Sneak Attack and mechanics (Open Lock, Disable Device), the US is more scouting and infiltration flavored.

yeah, but though i haven't read it, CM is supposed to be pretty broken, though how, i can't say through firsthand knowledge. all i know is that my DM won't allow it, and he's pretty sensible with such things.

is it a PrC you're talking about, or a new class? if it's a new class, then forget it; there's nothing you can't do with a rog/wiz or a rog/sor that you need a new class for. a PrC, though, well... that could be worth looking into.

 

[Hypersmurf]

contact other plane 5th level - difficult or dangerous to cast.

Ah... you haven't been introduced to the Familiar Loophole?

-Hyp.