Do fantasy RPGs have to be fantasical?

[Recidivism]

Fantasy roleplaying in general: definitely no.

D&D & it's numerous lookalikes: probably.

I never understood why people insist on using the D&D ruleset if it obviously doesn't offer the kind of gameplay they're looking for, e.g. 'realistic' rules, believable economic models, historical accuracy, etc.

I tend to like things like those you mention, but frankly I'd settle for D&D doing an adequate job of representing popular fantasy.

The problem is, D&D doesn't really do a very good job of that (at least 3+, it's been too long for me to speak with any confidence on earlier versions). If you want to have a campaign set in a world like Tolkein's, D&D is pretty poor at it. I haven't read all of the Wheel of Time series, but even that, with its big emphasis on flashy magic, seems to be a setting where magic is relatively less common than D&D. I can't really think of a popular fantasy series that coincides with the easy and cheap availability of magic that D&D presents (and to a certain extent, requires). Even the D&D novels (at least, the one or two I read on accident) don't really coincide very well with the game rules.

That's a big mistake, and thus it's not really surprising that there are people who want D&D play to mimic fantasy fiction. It's exactly what D&D advertises itself as doing. Why should it be wrong for people to want D&D to fill that niche? It's not a case of people wanting to turn D&D into something it isn't, it's a case of D&D not being good at what it advertises it's supposed to do.

 

[Niccodaemus]

I think the original Star Trek series is a good example of how a D&D campaign can work with "low magic".

The Enterprise and crew existed in a universe where day to day life was routine. Each crew member had something they excelled at, but only Spock had "magical" powers, and even those were very limited. (Strength, Nerve pinch, mind meld, extra eyelids, 7 year itch)

Yet nearly every week, there was some sort of over the top "magical" entity that was encountered. The crew had to use their brains and resources to overcome impossible odds.

Very campy, even cheesy if you prefer, but very cool.

Compare that to the relatively mundane Star Trek TNG, Deep Space Nine, etc.. These shows had their own strengths, but gonzo fantasy wasn't one of them.

I like a mundane word with quirky ass anomalies just outside the fringe of "civilization". A world that on the surface seems fairly ordinary (you get to spec out a few things that make it "fantasy", like the presence of Vulcans and Klingons in Star Trek... the unusual made "mundane"), but the really weird stuff is reserved for adventures.

For instance, gryphons and wyverns are fairly common creatures in my campaign setting. They are exotic animals. Dragons on the other hand are legendary. Intelligent fire breathing demi-god-like entities.

Few people have seen a giant in their lifetime, but everyone believes that one lives nearby. (much like actual history... folklore played a rich part of people's lives, and they believed the stories they told were true)

"Humanoids" (orcs, goblins, bugbears, etc...) don't roam the country side raiding towns. But if you happen to enter their domain, you'll find a very different reality than the one you left behind.

For Kirk and Company, running into Klingons or Romulans was just another day at the office. But when you meet some giant headed telepath capable of manipulating your very reality... well THAT'S an adventure.

In short... adventurers go "where no man has gone before". And even at first level, the adventures should be wild and wacky, with wonders that boggle the mind. Yet returning to "home base" should provide a level of the mundane.

 

[trancejeremy]

I think part of the thing is, in most novels or even TV shows, you rarely see someone go from just barely competent (1st level) to super-powerful (20th).

Like Star Trek. You start off with Kirk and company basically at maximum level - they're the best in Starfleet, they have the best ship. There's no room for growth, in terms of game power.

Is that necessarily a bad thing? Not when you are focused on story. But a lot of people want more than that.

When they converted Star Trek into a MMORPG, basically they turned it into D&D in space. 3 different classes, 50 levels, all sorts of gear you can get (some looted from enemies, some quest rewards), you have to work your way up in starships, too.

For the most part, it's a ludicrously unrealistic adaption of Star Trek. Destroying 6+ ships every mission and getting their loot? Buying ships with gold? (I mean, dilithium). All sorts of unusual (magic?) high powered items you can equip on your ship (or yourself)

And virtually every MMORPG follows that model. (Levels, classes, fancy gear that might not be magical, but better than off the shelf stuff). Why? Because people like it, even though it's not realistic.

 

[DragonLancer]

The Star Trek analogy is quite good but being sci fi it's somewhat different.

Are there any fantasy movies or TV shows which do adequately mirror the D&D model?

 

[Niccodaemus]

The Star Trek analogy is quite good but being sci fi it's somewhat different.

Are there any fantasy movies or TV shows which do adequately mirror the D&D model?

Well, as for sci fi, I think Farscape more closely mirrors the typical D&D model:

Which end of the D&D model spectrum do you mean?

 

[Loonook]

The Star Trek analogy is quite good but being sci fi it's somewhat different.

Are there any fantasy movies or TV shows which do adequately mirror the D&D model?

Chuck, Supernatural, Angel, Buffy off the top of my head mimic it... Movies just don't have enough time to mimic.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[DragonLancer]

I don't think I explained that very well. My bad. I meant as in sword/sorcery D&D-esqe fantasy rather than sci fi, horror or the like. Were there any shows or movies that portrayed a fantasy world that resembled that of D&D. I think it was a bad analogy to begin with though. I was a bit rushed and probably didn't think it through properly in my reply.

You've all given me some ideas to think about and I fear I may be over thinking things a little. I think I just need to lower my expectations a little and be more careful how I handle magic and such in game. I think coming out of a lengthy high magic campaign coupled with nostalgia for the good old days of my early D&D career may have burned me out a little.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Vance's Dying Earth is the closest thing to a D&D world I've seen in fiction, but it's completely not what the OP is looking for - monster-infested, lots of magic items, high weirdness.

Maybe Lord of the Rings. It's set in a low magic world, and several of the protagonists are low level, but over the course of the novel, the heroes encounter practically every magic item and monster around. So while the world is low magic, the adventures aren't, much like Niccodaemus's example of Star Trek TOS.

 

[gamerprinter]

In my setting, Kaidan, magic shops don't exist. In fact magic is controlled by a branch of the imperial government, the Ministry of Onmyodo (which actually existed in ancient Japan). Onmyoji, are the only 'licensed' spellcasters in the empire. Not that there aren't other spellcasters, but they practice in secret. Magic items are rare. There are some powerful legacy items, called ancestral relics that are distributed across the social castes, though the samurai and nobles possess most of them.

Many of the non-human races are shapechangers that definitely hide their true visage to the commoner, so though the rumor of shapechangers exist, most believe it's folklore, or none have seen one (though most likely they have, in human form.) The same is true for some ghosts, they sometimes seem alive.

There's no such thing as normal PF resurrection in Kaidan. The setting has it's own twisted rules of how reincarnation works, and everyone reincarnates when they die (or they become oni or ghosts).

So while a feudal Japan setting might not be for you. My setting has it's own rules to handle the many issues you have, and it's designed specifically for Pathfinder.

 

[Loonook]

I don't think I explained that very well. My bad. I meant as in sword/sorcery D&D-esqe fantasy rather than sci fi, horror or the like. Were there any shows or movies that portrayed a fantasy world that resembled that of D&D. I think it was a bad analogy to begin with though. I was a bit rushed and probably didn't think it through properly in my reply.

You've all given me some ideas to think about and I fear I may be over thinking things a little. I think I just need to lower my expectations a little and be more careful how I handle magic and such in game. I think coming out of a lengthy high magic campaign coupled with nostalgia for the good old days of my early D&D career may have burned me out a little.

There aren't any real sword-and-sorcery shows that aren't monster of the week sort of series. But saying that shows of other types don't allow for examples seems a little bracing.

Supernatural: Two brothers use very rogue-like skills to hunt down demons. Pretty much starting with Gathering Information, Thievery (Pick Locks, Forgery, Sneak/Move Silently), and Research along with Knowledge they track and kill monsters hunting down a fiend who murdered their mother in cold blood. The rogues gain allies amongst the outsiders who do the same, who have been fighting a battle against the darkness that has driven a lot of them to drink, depression, or loss of their own.

Fast forward a couple of seasons and they have gained access to rituals, are battling ancient forces of evil, and meet avatars and archfiends. The two brothers take very different paths, from an crooked pathed Paladin-esque protector of the innocent to a twisted, corrupted youth who has turned to darkness to battle his own fears. They have battled a hundred monsters, facing off against the Lightbringer himself. They have been raised from the dead (where they came back weaker until they got 'back into the swing', trading for power, gaining a magical ranged weapon with Bullets of Slaying... Where is this not just Guns and Rituals over Swords and Sorcery?

Angel/Buffy: A powerful female character and her older mentor begin a war against creatures. She has a unique birthright making her stronger, and she battles for Good. Through her development she takes on a group of followers who slowly diverge on their path. Due to various mishaps they gain the ability to cast spells, become a talented fighter through possession, and a few are the Things That Go Bump in the Night. At the end of one series an entire city is destroyed to save the world from its horrific destiny.

Move to the next series.... A handsome Thing That Goes Bump In The Night realizes he needs to move along and goes to a corrupt city seeking to abolish it. Taking on a young ruffian from the streets, two scholars, and an obnoxious blond-haired rogue-type they begin to fight a battle, but the demons keep coming. They make a pact with a group of Elder Forces, and the last scenes of the series include (turn volume off, it is just a stupid music video as I cannot find a better clip on short notice)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlqM3NCLRpU&feature=related] [/ame].

1.) A Wizard's duel,
2.) an epic set-breaking fight against the BBEGs' head bruiser, and
3.) LITERAL DRAGONS AND A DUNGEON!

So how exactly aren't these like D&D? Heck, they have their own RPGs based on them .

Slainte,

-Loonook.