Do NPCs have to follow the rules?

I don't think you have to fudge much in this case; as mentioned above, why not use the tables of NPCs in the DMG? Or, if you have access to a computer of your own, use free software like PCGen or Jamis Buck's NPC generator. Both do the number crunching, but Jamis' generator too often results in some illogical skill and feat choices.

What could help is for people to post their "generic" NPCs, like guards and the like, so that others have easy access to them. I started creating stats for "generics" using PCGen, and I'm slowly building a collection of them.
 

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I guess the biggest question here is how closely do your games match the core book ideal. (Yeah, the real question is how much of a stickler is everyone for the core balance, but the best indicator of that for all parties is how closely the game runs to that baseline, and how much grumbling occurs because of that.)

If your games are strictly by the book, (making extra sure that your adventures come out giving the party their wealth/level bonus, point buy and fixed hitpoints, etc.) don't do it. The game balance is highly tuned, and it'd be all too easy for your NPC to come out with advantages the players don't, all in the name of saving space. But if your NPC's are too powerful simply because you're lazy, I don't think your players will be that happy with you.

On the other hand, if you roll dice for a lot of things (like hitpoints and stats), and/or you aim for a different magic level than the core books, you're probably going to be ad hoc'ing a lot of things already, and the built in CR balance doesn't mean squat to you by that point. So in that case, the character creation flowchart is more a guideline and skeleton than set and stone, and if you have to pull numbers from thin air, it's far mroe forgivable.
 

What's good for the goose ought to be good for the gander; if an npc can somehow achieve a given mix of skills, feats and attack/save bonuses, so should the pcs. Problems pop up when players notice that npcs can do things pcs can't simply because they're npcs.
 

ColonelHardisson said:
I don't think you have to fudge much in this case; as mentioned above, why not use the tables of NPCs in the DMG? Or, if you have access to a computer of your own, use free software like PCGen or Jamis Buck's NPC generator. Both do the number crunching, but Jamis' generator too often results in some illogical skill and feat choices.

What could help is for people to post their "generic" NPCs, like guards and the like, so that others have easy access to them. I started creating stats for "generics" using PCGen, and I'm slowly building a collection of them.

I agree with Colonel Hardisson. Use the tables in the DMG or use Jamis Buck's generators. As for the weird skill and feat combos it produces, the latest version lists a total number of skill points. So, just generate the NPCs, erase the skills and feats the generator prints out, and assign your own using the skill point total given.

As for the generics, doesn't WotC's Enemies and Allies book have stats for generics in it? Also- I know there are at least two d20 companies working on a small sourcebook that contains a ton of generic NPCs.

Definitely save any generics you create though. With a minor change (or no change at all) you can reuse them over and over.
 

I personally couldn't care less, as a player, whether the 1st and 2nd level warriors our group killed in the ArTeeTeeTee'o'ee'ee had full stat blocks or not. They tended to last all of two minutes, with half of that being figuring out the init rolls to see which of us got the kills. It really didn't matter if they had Power Attack, Weapon Focus, or Skill Focus (basketweaving), because they never got a chance to use those abilities anyway.

I think that a good rule of thumb is that any creature with a CR of 1/3rd the party level or less is a mook. Mooks don't need stats beyond hit points, AC, attacks, and maybe a few jotted notes about what they aren't (relatively) incompetent in. That doesn't mean you shouldn't spend some time generating full stat blocks for these guys, though. If nothing else, it gives you a feel for how the system works, and what characters of different levels are capable of doing. This in turn lets you eyeball encounters better, so that when you do wing it, you're at less risk of crashing and burning.

Significant NPCs and encounters should still be statted out, regardless. These are the ones where PCs have a real chance of dying, so the players' interest in keeping things fair is greater.
 

When I started running my campaign I made cards with NPC stats on (easier than flicking from page to page in the MM). Over time I have no built up a stock of simple background NPCs (city guard, light thug, heavy thug, guild thief, etc.) so general mooks are easy enough.

Its a bit of extra work to start with but over time you get quite a nice collection of insta-bad-guy/red-shirts so it pays of in the end.

IMO Proper NPCs that are meant to last more than 5 combat rounds deserve an individual right up, anything else should be represented by something close enough [but still entirely rules legit]
 

Grazzt said:


I agree with Colonel Hardisson. Use the tables in the DMG or use Jamis Buck's generators. As for the weird skill and feat combos it produces, the latest version lists a total number of skill points. So, just generate the NPCs, erase the skills and feats the generator prints out, and assign your own using the skill point total given.

As for the generics, doesn't WotC's Enemies and Allies book have stats for generics in it? Also- I know there are at least two d20 companies working on a small sourcebook that contains a ton of generic NPCs.

Definitely save any generics you create though. With a minor change (or no change at all) you can reuse them over and over.

I'll have to download the latest version of Jamis' NPC generator.

You are correct about Enemies & Allies - there are some generics in it - a small variety of guards, the thug, the burglar, and a few others I can't remember.

Also, speaking of E&A, it also has the stat blocks for the Iconic characters at varying levels, so you could also use them in addition to the DMG NPC tables. Most of the spellcasters even list what spells they have prepared. E&A is also generally useful for all manner of NPCs, despite all the criticism of it. It's one of the more useful D&D products I've bought.

Another good place to get stats for NPCs is from modules. The WotC modules are great for this.

It might be useful for someone to generate NPC tables for the NPC classes like the ones for the PC classes in the DMG. One of these days I'll start on it.

Another cool thing that could be done is to come up with a variety of "prepared spells" lists to reflect spellcasters who fill certain roles - a list for "battlemages," and maybe lists for each of the specialists, at all levels from 1-20. A sidebar could list what bonus spells they would take, if applicable.

Just a few dreams...
 

the Jester said:
What's good for the goose ought to be good for the gander; if an npc can somehow achieve a given mix of skills, feats and attack/save bonuses, so should the pcs. Problems pop up when players notice that npcs can do things pcs can't simply because they're npcs.

And therefore the players should be able to have a gaze attack because their medusa nemesis has one? Ridiculous, right?

So if there are NPC races not allowed to PC's (not to mention alignments if you're going by the book), then why not NPC classes, prestige classes, feats and spells?

The power level of my campaign is way lower than D&D standard, so balance isn't an issue - I basically "wing" balance (ie. use RP disadvantages to balance NPC's).

If the DM's fair, then dissatisfied PC's shouldn't be an issue.
 
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For me, i point out the NPCs. i usually even buy their items based on the guidelines, but often will shift this either way for impact.

One of the benefits the classes provide is giving the players a 'familiarity with the world. The classes represent the common archtypes, the way powers are related, and give the players an understanding.

Whenever something breaks those ruoles, it should be a clue, a noticeable moment, a point of interest and not just "well Billy was rushed again" thing, IMO.

Hence i tend to work up the noteable NPCs, even the miscellaneous NPCs have class-level although much briefer writeups.

This is particularly true of attributes... as its tough to get too many high attribute scores.

looking at your examples...

"- city guard, attack +5, Power Attack, Spot +10, 20 hp, AC 20"

Ok looking at this as a GM i have to know where their AC 20 came from, so as to resolve touch attacks and flatfooteds. Just Ac20 is not enough info anymore.

Looking as a player, i would be wondering how he got a +10 spot to oppose my hide/sneak attampets... especially given he had no sneak attack or no major hp totals to indicate high levels. Assuming a 14 wisdom, he has to be 10th level as a fighter to be this good. If multiclassed as a ranger he still needs more levels than 20 hp would justify.

See, in my game a lowly guard grunt spotting the thief with a +10 spot would be seen as a clue, probably noticed only after more than a few guards were able to notice the thief. The PCs would start to wonder whats up with these guards, and probably find it significant enoguh to investigate.

By just making numbers up out of the blue and not worrying about whether they make sense, you lose this.

"- orcish assassin, attack +10, all thief skills +15, sneak attack +5d6, 50 hp"

the sneak attack weigh him in at about 9th minimum. the hp says con bonus, all thief skills however covers a lot of skills and even with the thief getting 8 this would require a high int... and a dex bonus and an int bonus... so now we have a guy with str bonus, dex bonus, int bonus, con bonus... and we still dont know what "thief skills" means... does it include spot, listen jump balance?

This one would likely as not avoid notice since most of the levels seem apropos, and in all likelihood most of the thieves skills would not be used so the PCs do not know how good he is at so many things, but if i were to actaully use the bulk of those thief skills i would start to wonder myself. i find its too easy to use NPCs "dully" when i give them openeneded lists of abilities. its much moreinteresting when the NPC dont have "everything i need" and thus have to improvise as well as the PCs.

"- archwizard, 20th level, attack +15, all knowledge skills at +10, Spellcraft +25, Concentration +25, 100 hp, all metamagic feats, pick spells as needed from the list"

Especially for wizards and sors, i point them out. Spellcasters in particular. Allowing these guys "unlimited spells" or picking their spells on the fly grossly distorts their abilities. my NPC wizards often walk around, just as the players do, with some open slots, so if the PCs gain surprise, they wont be meeting a full strength geared for offense wizard. My NPCs often have a spell slot or two here and there devoted to non-combat interests. In short, their spells are appropriate to their situation.

As for feats, feats make and define a great many characters, especially mages, as such any sort of a wildcard "all metamagics" is out of the question. besides, i think there are more metamagic feats than the 20th has slots.

a far better approach is to spend an afternoon pointing out some base characters... grunt fight, thug, elite archer, novice sorcerer, priestly wanderer, etc... do them right, and use them as a template.

If you decide you need a thug boss, take the thug template and add a few fighter levels on the fly... thats pretty easy... and even if its not exact it will be close enough.
 

As far as I'm concerned one of the rules prime funktions is to balance the power between the players. When it comes to NPCs it doesn't always make sense to follow the rules. Sure if I spend time I could come up with reasons why the old painter with 25 in painting skill have many hp and a high BAB but that would just make things unnecessary complicated. If I need a fighter to have 10 hp and 10 BAB in order to fit into the story then that's what he'll have.
 

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