D&D 5E Do NPCs in your game have PHB classes?

[The Crimson Binome]

As has already been explained, multiple times, both here and on the old WotC forums, there exists perfectly valid logic for the non-physical taking of damage.

Oh sorry, you may have missed the part of the conversation where we were specifically talking about 2E and 3E, and the context provided by the rules of those editions. I should have specified more clearly. In any edition, you could choose to use non-physical damage, if you were so inclined; some editions outright encourage it, and some editions merely say nothing against it.

But the rules of 2E and 3E do nothing to overtly suggest that method. Without some outside predisposition toward non-physical HP, there's nothing in 2E or 3E that would imply it as a possibility; such that, just reading the rules of those two editions, it is perfectly reasonable to come away with the understanding that a hit is always a hit (and specifically, it's a hit which causes injury in spite of armor), and that damage is always physical. You don't need to add anything extra to the game, or ignore any of the rules presented, in order to run it as a simulation (as the prosecution asserted).

 

[MechaPilot]

Oh sorry, you may have missed the part of the conversation where we were specifically talking about 2E and 3E, and the context provided by the rules of those editions. I should have specified more clearly. In any edition, you could choose to use non-physical damage, if you were so inclined; some editions outright encourage it, and some editions merely say nothing against it.

But the rules of 2E and 3E do nothing to overtly suggest that method. Without some outside predisposition toward non-physical HP, there's nothing in 2E or 3E that would imply it as a possibility; such that, just reading the rules of those two editions, it is perfectly reasonable to come away with the understanding that a hit is always a hit (and specifically, it's a hit which causes injury in spite of armor), and that damage is always physical. You don't need to add anything extra to the game, or ignore any of the rules presented, in order to run it as a simulation (as the prosecution asserted).

Yeah, um, the 3e PHB also says that HPs can represent deflection and divine favor. I don't have my 2e books anymore or I'd check those too.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Yeah, um, the 3e PHB also says that HPs can represent deflection and divine favor. I don't have my 2e books anymore or I'd check those too.

Right, and the 2E text is similar to the 3E text in that regard, so you might end up with a non-physical interpretation if you stopped reading right there, or if you read through the rest of the book with an eye for things that would dis-qualify a non-physical model. Taken as a whole, though, it would be vanishingly improbable for anyone to come away from either book with a non-physical model, if it wasn't suggested by an outside source.

 

[MechaPilot]

Right, and the 2E text is similar to the 3E text in that regard, so you might end up with a non-physical interpretation if you stopped reading right there, or if you read through the rest of the book with an eye for things that would dis-qualify a non-physical model. Taken as a whole, though, it would be vanishingly improbable for anyone to come away from either book with a non-physical model, if it wasn't suggested by an outside source.

Your interpretation. I was using non-physical in 3e, as were others I gamed with, and we didn't have any "outside source" suggesting it that wasn't a part of the general background radiation of culture in general at the time (i.e. literature, films, etc).

 

[Tony Vargas]

You don't need to add anything extra to the game, or ignore any of the rules presented, in order to run it as a simulation (as the prosecution asserted).

You do have to be simulating something, though, for 'as a simulation' to mean anything.

If you're simulating something, you can check the fidelity of the simulation to the real thing...

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Your interpretation. I was using non-physical in 3e, as were others I gamed with, and we didn't have any "outside source" suggesting it that wasn't a part of the general background radiation of culture in general at the time (i.e. literature, films, etc).

Out of curiosity, did you do the whole "The ogre swings his club and misses; you take 17 damage!" thing? And how did you come to that interpretation, based on the rules in the book (if you remember)?

I can't know the specifics of your history, or the histories of everyone in your gaming group, but more data is always useful.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

You do have to be simulating something, though, for 'as a simulation' to mean anything.

If you're simulating something, you can check the fidelity of the simulation to the real thing...

Most simulations cover situations that would be impractical or impossible to test in the real world. The obvious example of a simulation would be Sim City, and even that includes simulated kaiju attacks.

The game at hand simulates combat between 2-20 individuals well enough, though, as well as simple task resolution.

 

[MechaPilot]

Out of curiosity, did you do the whole "The ogre swings his club and misses; you take 17 damage!" thing? And how did you come to that interpretation, based on the rules in the book (if you remember)?

I can't know the specifics of your history, or the histories of everyone in your gaming group, but more data is always useful.

No, it was never simply described as "The ogre swings his club and misses; you take 17 damage!" I always try to make combat sound more interesting than that.

The narrative explanation for non-physical HP loss generally went more like these examples:

1) Deflection example: "The bandit thrusts his sword at you, the tip racing toward a weak point in your armor. At the last second, and with great effort, you deflect the blade. You take X damage."

2) Surprise attack dodge example: "You suddenly hear the straining of leather from behind you. Turning to face the sound, you stagger back a step as the assassin's poison dagger narrowly misses, putting a small scratch in the chest of your leather armor. You take Y damage." If you remove the surprise attack element, this also counts as a clothing/equipment damage example.

3) Luck example: "The cultist raises his dagger, catching you momentarily unprepared. Expecting the blade to slam down and pierce your flesh, you sigh in relief as the cultist is bumped by one of his adjacent allies and has to draw his hood out of his face. You take Z damage."


It's not as if we exclusively used non-physical HP loss. We liked having the narrative freedom that both options allowed. Here are some examples of HP loss that were mostly non-physical but had physical elements:

1) "The mercenary slashes his scimitar at your face. You lean back, barely evading the blow, your hair trailing behind and being neatly trimmed by the gnarled but still lethally sharp blade. You take X damage."

2) "The ogre's club comes crashing down toward you. You barely get your shield up in time, but the impact is much stronger than you were prepared for. Your muscles strain to keep the blow from tearing the shield out of your grasp. You take Y damage."

3) "The arrow darts toward your face, the tip glinting with the light of the torches in the room, and you barely avoid losing an eye as the bladed head of the arrow lightly grazes your cheek. You take Z damage."


Of course, I also implemented an injury system (although this example didn't occur until 4e, whose disease tracks I used as the basis for my injury rules).

"You find the floor is suddenly no longer there. You experience an odd sensation of semi-weightless just before plunging into the pit. You take X damage, which is in excess of your injury threshold. Roll to avoid injury (roll fails). You land feet first and crumple into a heap with a loud crunch that, as you attempt to move, you suddenly realize is a broken leg."

 

[Maxperson]

No, a "hit" means that you hit and caused injury, and "7 hp" tells you how much injury you caused.

That's wrong. Hits cause damage, not injury. The rules say it's damage. They do not say it's injury. Injury as a way to describe damage, but it has never in any edition been required to be the only way. "7 hp" only tells you how much damage you caused.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, um, the 3e PHB also says that HPs can represent deflection and divine favor. I don't have my 2e books anymore or I'd check those too.

So does 1e for that matter. Never in any edition have the rules said it is all about physical damage the Saelorn likes to play it.