Level Up (A5E) Do Player Characters Have Average Population Stat Distributions?

[Maxperson]

You claim a lot of things are RAW without ever citing your sources. Where exactly does it say that all abilities listed for a PC race are also applied to the stat blocks of NPCs of that race?

I cited it twice, including not long before the post you quoted. I you can look it up.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

If I want to play a wizard orc, I see no reason why they wouldn’t be smarter than their peers. I see no reason why I can’t put a stat boost in Int instead of strength, for instance.

I’d rather see a limit on potential. Maybe let certain races break the 20 cap instead. So at high levels, an elf can have 22 Int.

 

[Phoebasss]

Math based on feelings does not equate to suppression. Nobody is forcing them to feel that way. I'm not saying that there's no argument to be made to change how the stat bonuses work. I'm saying that an argument of suppression is wrong. There is no suppression.

But like... yes it is. Suppression is the reduction of something based on a factor. The main example I can think of where the word is used would be that closing polling stations suppresses voter turnout. It does this by making it less convenient to vote. Not being able to reach 16 in your primary stat makes it less appealing to choose a certain race/class combo. That is by definition suppression.

You keep basically implying that people wanting a 16 in their main stat is invalid, but the game is setup to encourage getting it. So there’s a piece of conflict here between half-orc wizards and getting a 16. And players have overwhelmingly decided in favor of the 16. Which suppresses half-orc wizards.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

But like... yes it is. Suppression is the reduction of something based on a factor. The main example I can think of where the word is used would be that closing polling stations suppresses voter turnout. It does this by making it less convenient to vote. Not being able to reach 16 in your primary stat makes it less appealing to choose a certain race/class combo. That is by definition suppression.

You keep basically implying that people wanting a 16 in their main stat is invalid, but the game is setup to encourage getting it. So there’s a piece of conflict here between half-orc wizards and getting a 16. And players have overwhelmingly decided in favor of the 16. Which suppresses half-orc wizards.

I think the issue (other than the weird veering into unnecessary politics) is that people have different ideas about limitations (which is a more neutral word than "suppression").

Some people prefer limitations, other people don't. That's a fine preference either way.

One way to look at it, if you don't see why people enjoy limitations, is to think of one definition of an adjective. An adjective is a word that limits a noun. You can have a house, which is any type of house, or you can have a red house, which is now limited in color (it can only be red). Adjectives necessarily limit, but they can also provide the impetus of language.

That's why, for example, some people enjoy free verse, and others prefer poetry of a certain kind (rhyming, sonnets, haikus, villanelles, limericks, etc.). Hence Robert Frost's saying, "Writing free verse is like playing tennis without a net."

Some people enjoy playing within formal limits (and the creativity that this can inspire), and other people don't. Trying to argue for a moral valence or superiority of one over the other (or calling it suppression) is the, um, path you shouldn't take, as Mr. Frost probably didn't put it.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

What do you think? Agree or disagree (poll) to the following proposition:

Character creation rules create exceptional hero protagonists, not statistically average populations. Therefore the character creation rules should not extrapolate to the population as a whole.

I'm not sure whether we're talking about racial bonuses, or stat arrays here, or in the poll, so I took a guess when I voted.

PCs are generated using a PC array/point value/generation method.
NPCs are generated with their abilities as required and exceptional ones may use PC values. Most of the population will have a much flatter distribution with their highest stat at 13 or even lower.

Racial capabilities like a higher Str can be represented by a bonus. This will push the average orc higher than the average halfling, but a strong halfline can still be stronger than a weak orc.

Can Zidi Wheatling, the Halfing Titan (apologies to @RangerWickett) spank the local orc weightlifting champion in a contest? Or is that that simply not allowed?

No wrong answers.

It is allowed: Zidi is a halfling titan, and premumably a great (high level) hero with a PC stat array, whereas the local orc weightlifting champion may not even have max strength for a 1st level PC.

 

[Phoebasss]

I think the issue (other than the weird veering into unnecessary politics) is that people have different ideas about limitations (which is a more neutral word than "suppression").

Some people prefer limitations, other people don't. That's a fine preference either way.

One way to look at it, if you don't see why people enjoy limitations, is to think of one definition of an adjective. An adjective is a word that limits a noun. You can have a house, which is any type of house, or you can have a red house, which is now limited in color (it can only be red). Adjectives necessarily limit, but they can also provide the impetus of language.

That's why, for example, some people enjoy free verse, and others prefer poetry of a certain kind (rhyming, sonnets, haikus, villanelles, limericks, etc.). Hence Robert Frost's saying, "Writing free verse is like playing tennis without a net."

Some people enjoy playing within formal limits (and the creativity that this can inspire), and other people don't. Trying to argue for a moral valence or superiority of one over the other (or calling it suppression) is the, um, path you shouldn't take, as Mr. Frost probably didn't put it.

It was just the only recent use of the word suppression I could think of. Think nothing of it.

Now to get to your actual point: If we call these things limitations isn’t that even stronger as a term than suppression? Lets not pretend 5e is doing a great job with providing constraints that inspire creativity in its players. Being a half-orc wizard doesn’t give you any more options than being a high-elf wizard. It gives you less options. As a high elf wizard I can either take an early feat or start taking feats four levels sooner with the standard array. I can take at most one feat throughout my first 12 levels as half-orc wizard, and I’m still just worse than my high elf counterpart.

My entire point is that I think making race limit class in this way or vice-versa is a lot closer to saying that if you’re red, you can either be a house or a firetruck. If you want to be a red sportscar the game puts a metaphorical boot on your tire. And in that situation I’m compelled to ask why the game feels the need to do that? Is it inspiring some additional creativity to limit half-orcs to 3 classes? I don’t think so.

 

[Phoebasss]

LOL, see you had posts hours later, guess you didn't make it?



Ok, I thought about this a bit more and actually I see it working out well. I'll explain with the half-orc wizard example. This half-orc doesn't spend time doing much of the things other half-orcs do, such as mostly physical activities. As such, he spent more time developing his intellect. It was harder for him because it isn't typical of his people. So, he traded in his STR +2 for an INT +1.

So, the idea is while (maybe) biologically disposed to being stronger, the PC decided to instead work harder to develop something else.

The halfling, instead of playing dexterous games like throwing rocks, etc. spent his time climbing and working harder at more physical activities. He traded in his DEX +2 for a STR +1.

Now, I am a purist as you said, but I don't mind this trade-off because I know it represents a sacrifice by the PC to break away from the norm.

Finally, I totally agree that the DM decides for their setting. If that breaks away from tradition by having super smart orc, high CON elves, etc. I am perfectly fine with that of course! As long as such things are covered in session 0, no worries. But, 5E D&D has a standard design, and unless the DM decides to deviate from that design, I think it should represent the norm.

No, I did not make it. I feel the goal of this project is to improve on DnD. And not mandating a Gygaxian world via statline is something I would consider a big step forward. Some other DnD-alikes have already done it. And I consider it a marked improvement.

 

[Maxperson]

But like... yes it is. Suppression is the reduction of something based on a factor.

Suppression is intentionally keeping someone down. If I'm forcing you to avoid wizards, that's suppression. If you are opting not to play a wizard based on feelings that the game doesn't actually back up, that's on you. They made the math easy on PCs so that you can do well with much lower stats than in the past. If people refuse to see that and keep choosing to limit themselves, they don't get to claim suppression. WotC didn't force you to feel that way.

The main example I can think of where the word is used would be that closing polling stations suppresses voter turnout. It does this by making it less convenient to vote. Not being able to reach 16 in your primary stat makes it less appealing to choose a certain race/class combo. That is by definition suppression.

Right. DELIBERATE action to reduce voting. There is no such action going on by WotC. In fact, they went out of their way to reduce the need for higher stats. They've encouraged Orc Wizards, not suppressed them.

You keep basically implying that people wanting a 16 in their main stat is invalid, but the game is setup to encourage getting it. So there’s a piece of conflict here between half-orc wizards and getting a 16. And players have overwhelmingly decided in favor of the 16. Which suppresses half-orc wizards.

No. I've never said it was invalid. I have said, and it's true, that it's unnecessary to have a 16 in order to do well at the game. If you personally feel that the 16 is necessary, get it and reduce your options. That reduction is your doing, though, not the game's. The game has gone out of its way to make that reduction unnecessary and encourage people to play Orc Wizards.

 

[Maxperson]

Some people prefer limitations, other people don't. That's a fine preference either way.

It's not even a limitation, though. If I want to play an Orc Wizard under the current set-up. I will, and I will do well as an Orc Wizard. I'm not limited, because I don't self-impose these limitations.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

My entire point is that I think making race limit class in this way or vice-versa is a lot closer to saying that if you’re red, you can either be a house or a firetruck. If you want to be a red sportscar the game puts a metaphorical boot on your tire. And in that situation I’m compelled to ask why the game feels the need to do that? Is it inspiring some additional creativity to limit half-orcs to 3 classes? I don’t think so.

Of course you don't think so! I mean, you are you, right? Just like people that write in free verse have trouble understanding why anyone would choose to write a villanelle. After all, you can write anything you want in free verse, but there are formal constraints with other forms.

Where is the FUN in that?

But perhaps your fun isn't the fun of other people. There are other real people talking to you here. I'm one of them. If I tell you, "I, a real person, find my fun and creativity in limitations and constraints," then doesn't that mean something? If a person says, "I know I can write any type of book, but I want to work within this genre convention because I enjoy these formal limits and I find it exciting and refreshing to explore the bounds of creativity within a structured setting," then who are you, or me, to gainsay that?

To move back to the instant example- yes. I think that there are many, many people (some of them on this thread) that find additional "creativity" and "fun" in working within specified rules. For those people, the idea that race and class is just "whatever," isn't freeing- quite the contrary. It's anathema to creativity.

From my perspective, the whole point of playing a half-orc wizard would be that if I choose to do so, it would be precisely because I was playing against type. Because there were mechanical limitations that I was working within and around- to me, that is the creative process. But it's fine and good if that's not you.

Different strokes for different folks. You can write free verse- just don't demand that everyone else write their poetry the same way.