Level Up (A5E) Do Player Characters Have Average Population Stat Distributions?

[Guest 6801328]

Really? Peewee league is for kids around age 11-12. No matter how exceptional a pro football player is, he or she was nowhere near as strong as they were all those years ago so it's silly to suggest that an "exceptional" individual on the peewee league offensive line can credibly pretend they are capable hold a candle to even the weakest pro football player. Level 1 PCs are at real risk of being killed by rats spiders zombies & even a lucky wizard's familiar, that's probably not even peewee league. The difference between those Level PCs & the average person who hired them is that the average person is almost guaranteed to be killed & as a result needs to hire a team capable of working together to handle these minor problems.

An analogy between D&D's gonzo zero-to-hero level system and the difference between childhood to adulthood in the real world probably doesn't make the best foundation for an argument.

 

[aco175]

You lost me with this. Are you talking about a different game?

No, fighters can crit on 19/20 in 5e and nobody else can- which I believe you know. The other part was about 3e where one of my players kept a messy sheet and never lumped all the bonuses together. It was never a simple roll and add one number.

 

[Helldritch]

My position on this is... ambivalent?
There should be a racial maximum, depending on race.
On the other hand PCs are heroic. They are not the norm. They should be able to go over the average joe.
But What about a PC halfing fighter at 20 strength vs a PC half orc fighter with a 20 strength... Shouldn't our half orc have an advantage over the halfling? Not only in size but in raw strength. Being heroic can't explain everything.

If we take both positions into account, it would be unfair for the PC half orc not to have an advantage of some sort over the halfling pc. Yet the halfling pc did commit a lot of resource to be a strength base fighter and it should be rewarded in some ways.

You see, both positions are equally valid in my mind. But my logic dictate that the although commendable, the halfling should have a maximum strength. No way around it. Maybe allowing some races to go over the 20 limit by 2 where they have a +2 bonus would be a good compromise? Or give a limit of 18 in all stats, save those where you have a +2 bonus. A human could choose one stat to be able to go above just as a half-elf could (because of ancestry). The great strength of human is both their versatility and their ability to adapt and raise to the same heights as the "demi" humans. It could be the best way, and still... One thing for sure, I don't want stat limits based on sex... ever.

 

[Charlaquin]

You lost me with this. Are you talking about a different game?

I think they’re talking about 3e, PF, and/or 4e. In those games it was super common practice when an attack just missed for players to hold up the game to re-calculate their attack bonus to make sure they hadn’t missed a +1 somewhere (which with all the miscellaneous bonuses those games had, was actually pretty easy to do), and/or to try and argue for the DM to grant them a circumstantial bonus based on fictional positioning. It was one of the worst parts of those editions, and its persistence in PF2 is a huge part of the reason I didn’t end up embracing it when it came out.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Because lets be honest, if you decide on a wizard or dex build with a +2 strength race, you basically lose access to your racial bonus. Which isn't fun or interesting.

Hmm... OK, I see your point. I just don't see it as a loss because that +2 STR race means I don't need to put as many points in STR to begin with. Now, personally less than 5% of my PCs will have less than 10s across the board. I've only made two PCs with 9's in anything in 5E. So, to me, you aren't losing the bonus, you are free to put more points where you want them.

you don't lose access to all your racial features just because your half-orc is a caster.

Well, you don't lose access to all your racial features. IME you might lose one... And for a caster, a trait like Relentless Endurance could be very awesome! Instead of going down and maybe losing a spell you are concentrating on, you keep going and might make the check.

Likewise, the half-orc savagery should apply to things that aren't just melee weapon attacks.

You can still imbue that savage attitude into a blast of acid or bolt of lightning. (Provided it has an attack roll of course)

Agreed. I don't know about ranged attacks so much, but melee spell attacks I could certainly support.

Over all, I think it is more about perception than anything. I do think a bit of tweaking by the DM/player could make up for things you feel get left out (such as savage attacker).

I just feel that because 5e is so hardline focused on combat being where the mechanics are, your race should also differentiate you in combat a little bit.

Yeah. I think the traits could be made to be more applicable to more classes for certain. For example, Mask of the Wild could also make it so you can attempt to hide under those conditions as a bonus action. Not much help to rogues, of course, but now it would be more useful to say, a cleric or sorcerer, who could cast a spell and then move and attempt to hide.

 

[Guest 6801328]

No, fighters can crit on 19/20 in 5e and nobody else can- which I believe you know. The other part was about 3e where one of my players kept a messy sheet and never lumped all the bonuses together. It was never a simple roll and add one number.

No, the 2nd part made sense. Sorta.

But...you've still lost me on the critting on a 19 thing. Crits depend on the natural roll on the die, not on any modifiers to the roll, and the conversation was about modifiers. So I'm confused.

 

[tetrasodium]

An analogy between D&D's gonzo zero-to-hero level system and the difference between childhood to adulthood in the real world probably doesn't make the best foundation for an argument.

Probably not but I'm not the one who brought up pro sports players in defense of it & the pro sports player analogy doesn't work either. clearly the weight of opinion is behind scaling them back towards racial norms out of the gate for whatever reasons people have. In my case it's because that allows more room for my players to grow @Minigiant can still give players a big bump at his table for whatever reason.

 

[Guest 6801328]

But What about a PC halfing fighter at 20 strength vs a PC half orc fighter with a 20 strength... Shouldn't our half orc have an advantage over the halfling? Not only in size but in raw strength. Being heroic can't explain everything.

I'm sympathetic to this position, but I think the solution is to give the halforc a racial ability that conveys a sense of strength in some way other than a straight bonus to every single melee attack.

 

[Minigiant]

Personally I like the idea of an orc wizard who decides not to waste his increased Strength and learns to wear armor.

And now there is some super smart LG orc in full plate punching touch spells on fools with gauntlets.
Because he's a PC. And PCs are weird.

 

[aco175]

But...you've still lost me on the critting on a 19 thing. Crits depend on the natural roll on the die, not on any modifiers to the roll, and the conversation was about modifiers. So I'm confused.

It was mostly referencing what a player says on dice rolls in general. I do not have anyone make a line about hitting since they are an elf, maybe getting to re-roll being a halfling and rolling a 1.