Do sleeping characters get saving throws?

[Luddite]

I would go with the "Always get your Reflex Save" camp.

Since the whole Save idea is supposed to encompus your charcater's ablity to react to danger. Even if you might be otherwise distracted, or asleep. Call it a Heroic Sixth Sense that everyone has. Rogues are better at dodging in their sleep then Fighters.

At most, I would imposse a circumstance bonus on the save DC.

-Luddite

 

[kreynolds]

I know kreynolds, I saw that...that's why the half asleep guards get their save to the silenced fireball, but not those that were asleep, as helpless overrides aware

Yup.

Besides, what's the guy doing casting fireballs on a party that is asleep and didn't post guards when he could walk in and CdG them all.

A auto fail of a saving throw for full damage is the least of your worries if you're helpless.

Actually, you gotta be careful when you CdG. You might wake the others up, and at best, it's a standard action to perform a CdG. So, you kill the first guy, maybe the second if you're hasted, then you get stomped to two more guys, which can especially suck if they sleep in their armor.

Would you allow someone that is held to make a save against the fireball?

Of course not. They're immobile.

I don't see much difference between held and sleeping other than you might have a chance to wake up

There really isn't any correlation to a held and sleeping target, other than the fact that they're both helpless. One is helpless because he can't move (he's held), the other is helpless because he's unconsious (he could move, if he were awake).

which could be covered by allowing the save with a BIG penalty or allowing a skill check to detect the spell first.

I don't give a standard reflex save when you're sleeping (your Dex is 0). After all, you're helpless until your next action.

 

[kreynolds]

I think if you're looking for rat bastard DM tactics, attacking the party while they're asleep is about as bad as they come. It also opens up a can of worms. It ticks off players for one thing, and invites the same kind of tactics back.

Ahh, but a rat bastard DM's rat bastard NPCs would never sleep.

 

[IceBear]

Yup.



Actually, you gotta be careful when you CdG. You might wake the others up, and at best, it's a standard action to perform a CdG. So, you kill the first guy, maybe the second if you're hasted, then you get stomped to two more guys, which can especially suck if they sleep in their armor.



Of course not. They're immobile.



There really isn't any correlation to a held and sleeping target, other than the fact that they're both helpless. One is helpless because he can't move (he's held), the other is helpless because he's unconsious (he could move, if he were awake).



I don't give a standard reflex save when you're sleeping (your Dex is 0). After all, you're helpless until your next action.

Yeah, I kinda overreacted with my ruling because the last time this came up it wasn't naturally sleeping characters, but held characters and people were arguing that the held rogue could still make a Reflex Save. So, I was kinda answering that question instead of the one posed

Anyway, I guess what I *was* trying to state earlier was that I would come up with a scheme that would give each PC about a 25% chance to wake up and get their full save before the fireball, but I guess I'll go with the Dex 0 ruling instead for natually sleeping characters - just to simulate their sixth sense.

IceBear

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I would give them their saves but give an effective 0 Dex if asleep.

Bound characters are helpless.
Sleeping characters are helpless.
Bound characters get no Reflex save.

It does not logically follow that sleeping characters get no Reflex save.

If you look carefully at the wording of that 2nd paragraph, you should notice it is possible for a non-helpless character to be denied a Reflex save. Strictly speaking, helplessness has no direct connection to Reflex saves as the rules are written. In fact, that third paragraphs strongly implies that Reflex saves are always automatic except when physically impossible.

That's not exactly what the paragraph says. It says it's not possible to evade. In a paragraph discussing an ability called evasion, I take it to mean only that Evasion is not effective while bound, not that a bound character gets no reflex save.

 

[IceBear]

But it says As with a Reflex save for any creature... which I take to mean that the rules for when you can evade is the same as Reflex Saves - plus I think it was clarified by the Sage that if you're helpless you can't dodge out of the way (ie make a Reflex save)

Anyway, this thread is now starting to turn like the other one. Sufficent to say, everyone has pet peeves with the rules - mine is the ability of someone who is helpless and can't move dodging out of the way (it's not resisting the damage - that's a Fort save), but dodging. I know that DMs always want to give their PCs a chance - I'm all for that - but there comes a point where it just doesn't make sense.

I will concede to giving sleeping PCs a Reflex save with Dex 0 as that's just a good a model as anything else to reflex the PCs instinctively knowing they're in danger and then taking action to get out of the way. But if they can't take that action, then no save.

IceBear

 

[Thakkar Rogsnar]

Speaking of Rat Bastard DM tactics, I must admit that I pulled one off that was quite sneaky on my part. The group was playing in Chult (FRCS) at the time. 90% of the party was playing humans. Due to the type of encounters possible in Chult they decided to sleep in the trees and avoid any lighting at night. One of the main antagonists in the game was a vampire, not common in Chult, but there as part of the campaign. The vampire flew into the camp as a bat, landed in the tree of the character on watch, and changed forms. After making a bit of noise to the side of the character (the night was total overcast with clouds and rain - jungle) several feet away, the vampire decided to try and dominate him. The vampire was also sufficiently hidden. When the character struck a sunrod and made his spot check the vampire was in front of him. Automatic gaze success, will save against domination that the character failed.

 

[the Jester]

I'm in the "Reflex save unless you're physically restrained" camp; that's what the quoted section of the SRD seems to indicate to me.

Think of the sleeping guy hit with the fireball who makes his save this way: when the barest beginnings of the blast hit him he wakes up and ducks into a ball, bearing the brunt of the blast on his less vital areas. Evasion? He rolls behind the tree he's sleeping under. Whatever's handy- even just flattening down or whatever. How do you normally justify evasion if there's nothing to duck behind anyway?

I definitely agree with the -5 for an effective dex of 0 for sleeping characters, too.

 

[IceBear]

Jester, I hope my original posts didn't make it seem like I go out of my way to prevent allowing making a Reflex save or use Evasion, because nothing could be further from the truth. In my opinion if you can move then you can make a Reflex save. As stupid as someone being in a 10ft square room when the fireball goes off and takes no damage I can live with it as he can move and therefore we can rationalize it away SOMEHOW (he drops to the floor at the last second, rolling quickly about smothering the flames before they have a chance to burn him).

All I meant to say is that if the guy can't move then he won't get the save or to use evasion. My original stance was IF you're still asleep when the fireball goes off you get no save, but I would have given the characters some chance of detecting it before it went off and waking up, thus getting their save. As pointed out here, if I just have everyone make their saves with Dex 0 then that one roll would take care of everything - if they make their saves they noticed the fireball and woke up in time to protect themselves, if they didn't then they were still asleep when it hit. That's more efficent than my rolling twice method.

IceBear

 

[KarinsDad]

I definitely agree with the -5 for an effective dex of 0 for sleeping characters, too.

Actually, it's often more than -5.

If you have a Dex of 18, it's -9.