Do Sleeping people make Will saves?

[Hannibal Barca]

Do Sleeping people make Will saves?

 

[Sammael]

Why shouldn't they?

 

[Geoff Watson]

Of course they do.

For a specific example, see the nightmare spell.

Geoff.

 

[Vrecknidj]

The mind is an amazing thing. When my kids were first born, I would wake up at the slightest noise (which I realize is more like a Listen check with a +4 new-daddy circumstance modifier, and not a Will save, but the point addresses something similar).

But, still, since the will is a function of the mind, and sleeping doesn't incapacitate the mind (for a fruitful example, consider dreams), I'd always allow a Will save for a sleeping person.

Dave

 

[Caliban]

However, if the spell requires a willing target, an unconcious person is automatically considered to be willing.

 

[Gez]

Fortitude and Will saves are passive. Something is done to you, and you try to resist. Reflex saves are active: something is going to happen to you, and you try to move out of the way.

That's why you are always entitled to do Fort and Will saves, even when unconscious; while you aren't allowed to do Ref saves when unconscious or unable to move.

 

[Egres]

Fortitude and Will saves are passive. Something is done to you, and you try to resist. Reflex saves are active: something is going to happen to you, and you try to move out of the way.

That's why you are always entitled to do Fort and Will saves, even when unconscious; while you aren't allowed to do Ref saves when unconscious or unable to move.

Actually, you can make Reflex saves even paralized, sleeping or otherwise unconscious.

 

[Hawken]

Actually, you can make Reflex saves even paralized, sleeping or otherwise unconscious.

How did you come to that conclusion?

The PHB specifically states that a Reflex save is a measure of the character's ability to dodge effects. The PHB does not state that a sleeping, paralyzed or otherwise immobile target does or does not get a Reflex save, however, they leave many things open to common sense and the deductive powers of its readers. Reflex is a measure of your ability to dodge something. You need to be able to move to dodge out of the way of something. Immobile (whether by paralysis, sleep or whatever) means you cannot move. Draw your own conclusions from that.

If one of my players wanted to make a Reflex save while asleep or paralyzed (or otherwise immobile), I'd have to make a Will save not to laugh at their request.

 

[Egres]

How did you come to that conclusion?

The PHB specifically states that a Reflex save is a measure of the character's ability to dodge effects. The PHB does not state that a sleeping, paralyzed or otherwise immobile target does or does not get a Reflex save, however, they leave many things open to common sense and the deductive powers of its readers. Reflex is a measure of your ability to dodge something. You need to be able to move to dodge out of the way of something. Immobile (whether by paralysis, sleep or whatever) means you cannot move. Draw your own conclusions from that.

If one of my players wanted to make a Reflex save while asleep or paralyzed (or otherwise immobile), I'd have to make a Will save not to laugh at their request.

From the Main 3.5 FAQ:

Exactly when can a character make a Reflex saving
throw? The saving throw section on the Player’s Handbook
says Reflex saves depend on a character’s ability to dodge
out of the way. Does that mean you can’t make Reflex saves
if you can’t move?

A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is
subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save
usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save is not
completely dependent on a character’s ability to move around.
It also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes
the save necessary in the first place, and a host of other
miraculous factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D
game from meeting an untimely fate.
In most cases, you make Reflex saves normally, no matter
how bad your circumstances are, but there are a few conditions
that interfere with Reflex saves
[...]
If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively
0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your
Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever
you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep.

 

[Scion]

I believe that the text from evasion goes against that pretty well, but I definately prefer to allow a save under any conceivable circumstances. After all, they are heros right? Very strange things happen sometimes.