do spell dc's keep up with saves?

[fl8m]

I'm just wondering if the save dc's on my spells are going to be able to keep up with npc save bonuses. i'm assuming i'll be able to raise my Int 5 times ending up with about a +7 or +8 modifier so dc's ranging from 18-26.
should i invest heavily in things to increase my spell save dc's? spell focus, greater spell focus, archmage, elemental savant, etc...
I'm just concerned because there's nothing quite as frustrating as having all your uber powerfull spells ignored by the guys trying to kill you.... gotta hate those monk/paladin saves...

 

[Dr_Rictus]

It's mainly a matter of tailoring save categories to your targets. DC's and bonuses tend to roughly keep pace for any target's "fast" categories, but not for the "slow" ones.

With targets who mainly have character levels this is easy, but it really behooves the high-level spellcaster to learn which creature types are good at which categories of save and get good at identifying creature types.

 

[candidus_cogitens]

Good question. The increase you get by raising your intelligence (or other primary ability for spellcasting) is going to be negligible in comparison to the increases your foes get to saving throws. My hunch is that at higher levels, your lower level spells are going to become increasingly ineffective. But that is as it should be, I suppose. It would be just silly if you could down a frost giant with a simple sleep spell.

This makes me consider picking up more spells that don't involve a saving throw at all: magic missile, for example, and buffing spells like cat's grace. That way, as you get to higher levels, you can still use those low level spell slots for something.

I *think* that the higher DCs for higher level spells are proportionate to the higher saves for characters who have "good saves" in the relevant category. So, that means if you are using your toughest spells, you would still have about the same rate of success against a monk as you did when you were both at first level. (Double check me on this!)

 

[candidus_cogitens]

DC's and bonuses tend to roughly keep pace for any target's "fast" categories, but not for the "slow" ones.

Thank you Dr. Rictus! That is the confirmation I was looking for. (You posted your reply as I was writing mine, so I didn't get to read it before I replied.)

So, this means that you could still have reasonable success using some of your lower level spells when they force your opponent to use his weaker saving throw. That's encouraging!

 

[Petrosian]

The key to spells DCs is the spell level, not the int behind it.

FAVORED saves advance by 1 every 2 levels.
NON-FAVORED saves advance every 3 levels.

Spell levels go up every 2 levels.

As long as you keep throwing top spells against favored saves, you keep pace.

If you throw top spells against non-favored saves, you get ahead.

So tactics hinge on target choices.

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Complications: LEVELS

Both sides get ti increase their stats every 4 levels.

Your spellcaster will mostly be putting theirs in their spell stat, giving them a new +1 every 8 levels.

Your victims will vary much more. Clerics and rogues have the double whammy of their prime stats also being a save stat. They will keep pace with the spells. (Add the triple whammy of these also being their favored save and you do not want to throw against these.)

Everyone else has primary stats not being save stats. They probably wont keep up.

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COMPLICATINS: MAGIC

Items to raise saves are fairly common and cheap. They are much cheaper than those which promote higher stats. So this are will work against the speller. Items which directly raise dcs are rare.

To thwart this to a degree, the speller has the spell focus and greater spell focus feats. While the victims can take the other save boosting feats, they only affect one category.

*************

 

[Spatzimaus]

We had a HUGE thread about this on the previous boards. Petrosian pretty much covered it.

When I cast my lowest spells, as I increase in level I almost keep pace with a Poor save. People with a Good save become practically immune.

When I cast my highest spells, as I increase in level I keep pace with a Good save (actually, the odds get slightly better). People with a Poor save have far less chance of resisting.

When I cast an average-level spell, as I increase in level people with Good saves get increasing chances of resisting while people with Poor saves get decreasing chances.
This assumes you put all 5 of your free points into your casting stat, took Spell Focus (and Greater Spell Focus maybe), etc.

If the target is a Rogue, he'll be basically immune to Reflex attacks no matter what (high DEX and Evasion). If the target is a Cleric or Druid he'll be basically immune to Will attacks (high WIS).

 

[dabrutsqad]

This makes me consider picking up more spells that don't involve a saving throw at all: magic missile, for example, and buffing spells like cat's grace. That way, as you get to higher levels, you can still use those low level spell slots for something.

As a multiclass spellcaster, I've seen that I've been outclassed very easily with Save DCs. Mine suk, since my primary stat is not my spell-dependant stat. Once you figure this out, you switch from offence to defence. I buff, buff, buff and buff some more. Another good way around saves if you multiclass with fighter is Touch attacks & Ranged Touch attacks. A good BAB will help make up for it. It's not an option for the Full casters, but it works.