Do Star Wars Saga skill rules make d20 better?

[Kae'Yoss]

Can someone point me towards those rules? Because I have to know them before I can mercilessly crush them with my nay-saying.

 

[GreatLemur]

I'm asking since D&D (and other class/level systems) have built in scaling competence - e.g. the high level sage with a better BAB than a low level fighter and more hit points than a heavy warhorse, even though he's just sat in the library all his life...

Hey, I didn't say level-based BAB and HP (and, for that matter, save bonus) progression didn't bother me, just that level-based skill-progression did.

But if we're going to limit our test cases to adventuring player characters, I do think that HP, BAB, and saves arguably have more reason to be pegged to character level than skills, given that they're very basic things that all (adventuring) characters use. After 10 levels of dungeon-delving, even a Wizard has made a whole lot more attack rolls than a first-level Fighter. He probably hasn't, however, made more Open Lock checks than a first-level Rogue.

You're completely right that this breaks down once we start looking at NPCs, though. I don't really see why Commoners and such even get a BAB progression . . . or, for that matter, why there are actually levels for such a class.

 

[drothgery]

Can someone point me towards those rules? Because I have to know them before I can mercilessly crush them with my nay-saying.

Since they're not OGL, the best you can get is looking at the SWSE previews on Wizard's web site (here's the first one on the skill system: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview2 ) and reading the message boards.

 

[The_Gneech]

Well, they're also in the book.

-The Gneech

 

[drothgery]

Well, they're also in the book.

-The Gneech

Well, yeah, but that's not freely available online, at least not legally .

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Since they're not OGL, the best you can get is looking at the SWSE previews on Wizard's web site (here's the first one on the skill system: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview2 ) and reading the message boards.

That works, thanks!

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Hey, I didn't say level-based BAB and HP (and, for that matter, save bonus) progression didn't bother me, just that level-based skill-progression did.

But if we're going to limit our test cases to adventuring player characters, I do think that HP, BAB, and saves arguably have more reason to be pegged to character level than skills, given that they're very basic things that all (adventuring) characters use. After 10 levels of dungeon-delving, even a Wizard has made a whole lot more attack rolls than a first-level Fighter. He probably hasn't, however, made more Open Lock checks than a first-level Rogue.

You're completely right that this breaks down once we start looking at NPCs, though. I don't really see why Commoners and such even get a BAB progression . . . or, for that matter, why there are actually levels for such a class.

There is more to adventuring then just BAB, HD and Saving THrows, though.
Typical adventuring skills in my experience also include things like Balance, Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Jump, Swim, Escape Artist. I would also make a case that Bluff, Disguise, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Sense Motive and most Knowledge Skills are often enough needed.
Why would a Fighter never improve his Knowledge (Arcana) skill if he is wandering with a Wizard who constantly tells him and his friends about the weaknesses of particular magical beasts and explaining what spells he can use and what not? (And why doesn't his Knowledge (Religion) improve if he is around a Cleric who certainly constantly promotes his belief?)
Why would a Cleric not pick up a bit of Hide and Move Silently when the group's Rogue and Ranger try to sneak up to the enemy while he has to stay back?
Why would anyone that had to do camp duty not pick up a bit of Listen and Spot?
The reason in the current D&D skill system is simple: It's to expensive to improve non-class skills.

As long as you have to pay for an advancement that is not crucial to your character's concept, you won't take that advancement. It might be power gaming or min-maxing, but it is the truth of the game.

The SAGA solution is to give everyone an advancement (though even for skills he most likely never used. Though that is actually pretty limited in SAGA, as the skills have become broader - most characters have no reason to ever get better in a skill like Forgery, but if Forging is just a subset of Deception, this isn't as noticeable)

I am not certain that it's the bet solution, but I think it's good enough, and I think it also fits D&D. It reduces some of the options you have in character creation and development, but in turn, it gives you more options during game - Because (at higher levels) you can try skills you usually wouldn't bother with. This probably only applies to things that have static DCs, though - once you have to compete with opponents that are more then mooks, the non-trained characters are still hosed...

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Having read it, I must now say that it makes the game worse:

If you want quick and easy skills for characters, all you have to do is just max out skills.

The formula

Level+3 (x1/2 if untrained) + ability score +3 (if focus)

isn't much harder than

Level/2 + ability score + 5 (if trained) +5 (if focus)

but the first one allows you to fine-tune it. That some people don't realise that you can just max out skills isn't really the game's fault.


Now, I'm not saying that it's all bad! Consolidating skills isn't such a bad Idea (there's some of that in my house rules, too), for example. And I'm not saying that the d20 skill system cannot be improved. I just say that I prefer the current d20 system over the current Saga system.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

After 10 levels of dungeon-delving, even a Wizard has made a whole lot more attack rolls than a first-level Fighter. He probably hasn't, however, made more Open Lock checks than a first-level Rogue.

But he has, presumably, spent a lot of that time watching his 1-10th-level Rogue buddy pick locks and disable traps, and has spoken with him at least occasionally around the campfire on how locks are made, etc.

The best part about Saga skills is that a 3rd-level "sage" type is knowledgeable enough to be an expert.

 

[drothgery]

That some people don't realise that you can just max out skills isn't really the game's fault.

As I said up-thread, that's a gross oversimplfication that only works if you never multi-class (or only multi-class into classes which have the same class skills that you were maxing out before as class skills, and have the same amount of skill points) and if your intelligence modifier never changes.

And in fact, because I didn't want to spend a whole weekend making a new character when my 14th-level PC died a few months ago, he's a single-classed warmage, with max ranks in all of his skills, and I put his high stat in Int and increased his Charisma with level-up bonuses.