Do the spell research rules discourage spell research?

[Olive]

[mods: This is more of a discussion about the impact of the rules than a rules question, but feel free to move it if appropriate ]

One of my players is rather keen on developing new spells. He's good at it, and it certainly adds to both his character and the game generally. See here and here for examples.

The probelm is that spells are really expensive to research. A new spell, if balanced properly and well thought out, has no more negative impact on the game than learning fireball or scry does. But it costs 10 times as much! The RPing benefit of original spells is huge, IMO.

I don't want to up the general wealth level in the campaign to support this as that would throw everyone out of balance. But there should be a way that this players cool ideas can be realised with in the campaign withoutbreaking the bank.

What do you all think?

 

[LordAO]

The spell researh rules are there to represent the difficulty in inventing something new. It's alot easier to learn a spell from a scroll or book then it is to make it up from scratch.

I do see your point, though. It does tend to discourage the creation of new spells. One option I can see if you don't want to use house rules is to allow the player to quest to find a lost scroll or spellbook which contain the spell(s) he invented. This will allow you to easily introduce new spells into the game without an enormous cost to the palyer, and if the player discovers a lost spell, nobody else will likely know it, the same as if he had researched it himself.

 

[Olive]

I don't mind using house rules, and I think the player wants his characters name on them!

I'm thinking of using a messed with version of the Landlord feat from the Stronghold Builder's Guide. Basically let players take a feat at about 9th level that allows them cash for things that won't break the game, but are significantly expensive for realism reasons. Maybe allow the landlord feat to allow for two or three spells worth of research a level.

 

[Umbran]

Actually, there is a reason to make spell research costly - in game terms, flexibility is a form of power, and power has a cost.

New spells are not necessarily in and of themselves unbalancing. However, beign able to do something nobody else can do, the right thing, at the right time, is valuable, and ought to be paid for.

For example, the "interlibrary loan" spell seems inoccuous enough. However, if you think about it, it's pretty darned potent - any knowledge you know is written in a book can be at your fingertips. You think that's not potent? Try doing research without the internet or a card catalog! How many questions will the party be able to answer that they could not before?

In the end, of course, each DM must decide for themselves exactly how much one must pay for this extra power. I'm just suggesting that you not out of hand decide that it isn't a big deal. Having new tools at your disposal isn't to be sneezed at.

 

[Silveras]

The probelm is that spells are really expensive to research. A new spell, if balanced properly and well thought out, has no more negative impact on the game than learning fireball or scry does. But it costs 10 times as much! The RPing benefit of original spells is huge, IMO.

Don't underestimate the value of surprise. In a Birthright PBeM game I played in, the first thing I did was to research a new spell. It was a "Battle" version of an existing 2nd level spell (for use with BR's mass combat rules). A couple of turns later, the fighter/wizard ruler over the goblin kingdom tried to assault the dwarf nation I was allied with. My PC showed up for the battle, and used his new spell.

Fear and Panic ensued as the goblins were subjected to a mass-combat version of a very basic spell. My dwarf allies pretty much butchered the invading army (good tactics helped, of course).

The DM later informed me that the attacking player was livid ... because "there IS no such spell !". (My favorite part of the story) She replied "He researched it."

My point being, just by virtue of being new, it has a potential for extra potency because the opposition *cannot* really prepare to counter it, at least not until after they have seen it once or twice.

That being said, I recall in the "Classic Dragon articles" thread that you were going to go out and buy the archive. Search for spell research articles by Bruce A. Heard (try without the initial, too). He did a couple of nice spell research articles for 1st Edition that should be easily adaptable to 3rd Edition. The key is the library. You need a certain minimum gp value of books in your library to perform research of X level spells. Each time you spend some gold on research, about half of it is retained to add to the value of your library. Having a library with a net value sufficient to research a spell of higher level than you are working on increases the success chance. This allows you (the DM) to create named books which have bonuses to research specific spells, and to award them as treasure (instead of cash). All in all, a very good flavor + rules = fun system.

As an aside, the 3rd Edition costs of spell research are fairly low compared to previous editions. Which, I think, bears out my original statement: don't underestimate the power of having a new/secret/unknown spell on your side.

[Edit: Saw Umbran's post, and that reminded me. Opps. Yeah, if you decide to do the detailed library and books route, the first casualty almost has to be that "Interlibrary Loan" spell. Much too easy to get at the knowledge. It is practically a "summon treasure" spell, depending on the campaign world.]

 

[Olive]

[Edit: Saw Umbran's post, and that reminded me. Opps. Yeah, if you decide to do the detailed library and books route, the first casualty almost has to be that "Interlibrary Loan" spell. Much too easy to get at the knowledge. It is practically a "summon treasure" spell, depending on the campaign world.]

Yeah, if you know what treasure to ask for. The spell doesn't get 'books on dragons', it get's Olive's Draco Libram, 3rd ed. Unless you know what to ask for, it's worthless.

Flexibility is a good point, but I'm not sure any well balanced new spell is really worth 10x the cost of a published spell. Unless I made all non-core spells require research...

 

[Olive]

Hmmm, I hate to bump mt own thread, but any one else have any ideas?

 

[s/LaSH]

Well, I've been jotting down notes for a very, very in-depth spell research system... let me know if any of this sounds interesting:

The principle revolves around performing magical experiments with a powerful essence known as Flux. The cost of research is diminished or removed because of the inherent advantages and risks of using Flux research.

Step one: Decide which spell you're researching. (This may be a completely new one, or a PHB spell you just haven't got yet.) Determine keywords from the spell description (things like Fire, Abjuration, Mind-Affecting etc). You must amass Keys from the research process equal to the spell level.

Step two: Choose lab type. I've got eight; they determine what your experimental subject will be, ranging from the Biology Lab's living creature to the Metallurgy Lab's specific talisman. Labs are probably feats, so you're not going to have all 8 of them for a long time. The subject must possess the Keyword that you're currently researching (one of the Keywords of the spell).

Step three: Choose path. Each lab type has a favoured Path, but you can't have identical Keys contributing to a single spell. A Key is made up of Path and Keyword, so you can vary what you're researching or how you're researching it to get enough keys for high-level spells. There are eight Paths, things like Infusion, Invasive Examination, Communion etc.

Step four: Roll 'em! Make checks to summon enough Flux (successive Keys require more power), bind the Flux (harder to do; wild Flux has a random effect, for which I've drawn up a couple of tables), deal with the result of the Flux (even bound Flux has an effect, based on Path, Subject and Keyword; wild Flux just randomises one or more of these elements), and roll to analyse what happened. If you don't get enough Flux, or fail to understand it, the process is wasted and you must begin again. If you succeed, this Key is added against the spell and you return to step 2 to accumulate more Keys.



The point of this convoluted process is very simple: Create lab accidents. I specifically wanted to make a system whereby owlbears were something a player could make one day when they mixed the wrong beakers. Or heck, maybe they just wanted to make an owlbear. Either way, cost is greatly diminished beyond a certain startup fee.

The system also acts as a campaign framework. Other classes besides mages are necessary, to protect the wizard from his/her own creations or to go out and procure new experimental subjects. I guess this could be toned down if you wanted.

I haven't finished the details, but the process is done. If it sounds good, I'll write it up and see if anyone wants to publish it...

 

[Kyramus]

I don't see a problem with this. Caster researches a new spell. it's expensive. Then what? you think it overbalances because the caster is lower in wealth? Think again.
If the caster was really going for riches, he could sell these spells repeatedly. Instant money.
Or if he wants it to be secret, then he doesn't sell it and use it effectively in combat or otherwise and deal with the sacrifice of fame.

 

[Templetroll]

The principle revolves around performing magical experiments with a powerful essence known as Flux. The cost of research is diminished or removed because of the inherent advantages and risks of using Flux research.

The point of this convoluted process is very simple: Create lab accidents.

I love it. All I want now is a Flux-Capaciter!