Do the spell research rules discourage spell research?
- Thread starter Olive
- Start date
the Jester
Legend
You could allow the pc to select spells he wants to research for his free level-up spells. That would be, at most, two spells per level.
I will do this with sorcerers.
I will do this with sorcerers.
Amal Shukup
First Post
My objection to wizards learning new spells was the ridiculously (IMHO) inflated cost of scribing spellbooks - not the costs of R&D. A wizard who loses their spellbook is in enough trouble without it ALSO requiring 10,000 GP to replace (material costs alone)...
So. In my campaign, I drafted a number of house rules to address that and the processes associated with learning new Spells. They're not really 'done' - Mostly because the wizards in my campaign keep dying before they get around to using them extensively. I've got a new one starting though - so hopefully she'll express interest in developing new spells...
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Learning New Spells
So. In my campaign, I drafted a number of house rules to address that and the processes associated with learning new Spells. They're not really 'done' - Mostly because the wizards in my campaign keep dying before they get around to using them extensively. I've got a new one starting though - so hopefully she'll express interest in developing new spells...
BahWOOgah - House Rule Warning - BahWOOgah
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Learning New Spells
Note: A Spellbook is simply a normal book, and requires only mundane pen and ink. The actual contents are not magical in and of themselves and can be written in any language. In effect, they are like recipe books (for spells). By contrast, scrolls use a fairly standard magical notation - as well as special inks and paper.
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Method One: Ongoing Study
Every Level, a wizard can learn two spells of up to the highest level she can cast. Free. R&D and such for these spells is assumed to have been done in 'spare time' over the previous levels.
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Method One: Ongoing Study
Every Level, a wizard can learn two spells of up to the highest level she can cast. Free. R&D and such for these spells is assumed to have been done in 'spare time' over the previous levels.
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Method Two: Research
a) Acquire a copy of the spell. Typically by finding or purchasing a scroll or book.
b) Decipher the spell. This can be accomplished automatically with Read Magic, or with a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + Spell level) - This takes One Hour/Spell Level. If failed, this can be re-attempted the next day. If the original scriber is assisting, this check is automatic.
c) Conduct experiments. This requires access to a lab or at least a basic 'kit' of equipment and any required material components. This process takes One Day/Spell level.
d) Attempt to learn the spell. This requires a successful Spellcraft check (DC 10 + 2/Spell level). If the wizard fails, she cannot attempt again until she has raised her Spellcraft at least One rank. If a wizard fails to learn a spell three times, she will never be able to learn it.
e) Scribe the spell into her spellbook. This takes One Hour/Spell Level and consumes Two Pages/Spell Level.
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Method Three: Development
Developing a new spell requires:
- 250 gp per day for library access, materials, and services*
- Research Time: Nominally Three Days/Spell Level
After the Research is concluded, the researcher must make a successful Spellcraft check (DC 15 + 2/Spell Level).
If succesful. the wizard may scribe the spell into his spellbook. This takes One Hour/Spell Level and consumes Two Pages/Spell Level as usual.
If the check fails, the wizard must repeat the process from the beginning.
A'MalMethod Two: Research
a) Acquire a copy of the spell. Typically by finding or purchasing a scroll or book.
b) Decipher the spell. This can be accomplished automatically with Read Magic, or with a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + Spell level) - This takes One Hour/Spell Level. If failed, this can be re-attempted the next day. If the original scriber is assisting, this check is automatic.
c) Conduct experiments. This requires access to a lab or at least a basic 'kit' of equipment and any required material components. This process takes One Day/Spell level.
d) Attempt to learn the spell. This requires a successful Spellcraft check (DC 10 + 2/Spell level). If the wizard fails, she cannot attempt again until she has raised her Spellcraft at least One rank. If a wizard fails to learn a spell three times, she will never be able to learn it.
e) Scribe the spell into her spellbook. This takes One Hour/Spell Level and consumes Two Pages/Spell Level.
_______________________
Method Three: Development
Developing a new spell requires:
- 250 gp per day for library access, materials, and services*
- Research Time: Nominally Three Days/Spell Level
After the Research is concluded, the researcher must make a successful Spellcraft check (DC 15 + 2/Spell Level).
If succesful. the wizard may scribe the spell into his spellbook. This takes One Hour/Spell Level and consumes Two Pages/Spell Level as usual.
If the check fails, the wizard must repeat the process from the beginning.
Note: This Spellcraft check CANNOT be boosted by magic etc. unless the magic is in place during the ENTIRE research process
Accelerated Research: It is possible to rush this process, but each day of research skipped increases the DC by 5. Development requires a MINIMUM of One Day/Spell Level of study.
* This is the rate for Freelance (non-associated) Mages to use the facilities of the Guild/Arcane College in my main city. Members of the College pay less (in exchange for yearly dues and other obligations).
Masters of the College also get access to more advanced facilities, subsidized research lackeys etc. - which can substantially reduce costs or reduce Development time.
In any event, the Arcane College is often willing to PAY for the right to copy Developed Spells - which can further defray costs if one is willing to part with exclusivity...
Masters of the College also get access to more advanced facilities, subsidized research lackeys etc. - which can substantially reduce costs or reduce Development time.
In any event, the Arcane College is often willing to PAY for the right to copy Developed Spells - which can further defray costs if one is willing to part with exclusivity...
BrooklynKnight
First Post
Without reading the other posts i'll try to give some insight into why its expensive to research.
Magic users, specifically the wizard and the sorcerer, have a distinct advantage in that due to magic creation, they can start with anywhere between 1.5 to 2x as many magic items in total gp value then any other character. (i'm talking mid level or higher, not 1st).
The cost of creating spells is balanced against what a wizard has money to spend on. Unlike a fighter a wizard does not spend his money on weapons and armor. Sure he might buy some bracers and a few misc items, but again, he can make them at half cost to himself.
So logicially wizards would have a lot more money to burn then a fighting class. Especilally since they can sell their creations. The expensive spell research rules give an outlet for this money so a wizard does not turn into a bank or a magic item vault. Remember though, its just an option. Wizards dont have to research additional spells beyond the 2 they receive at each level, however its their versatility that makes them powerfull.
So I dont think that spell research is too expensive. It does what its supposed to do.
Fighters spend gold on weapons and armor, wizards spend gold on spells and wands.
Magic users, specifically the wizard and the sorcerer, have a distinct advantage in that due to magic creation, they can start with anywhere between 1.5 to 2x as many magic items in total gp value then any other character. (i'm talking mid level or higher, not 1st).
The cost of creating spells is balanced against what a wizard has money to spend on. Unlike a fighter a wizard does not spend his money on weapons and armor. Sure he might buy some bracers and a few misc items, but again, he can make them at half cost to himself.
So logicially wizards would have a lot more money to burn then a fighting class. Especilally since they can sell their creations. The expensive spell research rules give an outlet for this money so a wizard does not turn into a bank or a magic item vault. Remember though, its just an option. Wizards dont have to research additional spells beyond the 2 they receive at each level, however its their versatility that makes them powerfull.
So I dont think that spell research is too expensive. It does what its supposed to do.
Fighters spend gold on weapons and armor, wizards spend gold on spells and wands.
Hmm, does the cost of research prevent some people from researching.
Well... does the cost and risk of owning your own business prevent some people from owning their own business?
Does the cost and investment of medical education as well as a certain amount of studiousness and intelligence prevent some people from going to medical school?
Doing something hard.... welll... should be hard!!
Well... does the cost and risk of owning your own business prevent some people from owning their own business?
Does the cost and investment of medical education as well as a certain amount of studiousness and intelligence prevent some people from going to medical school?
Doing something hard.... welll... should be hard!!
One thing that I think you're overlooking in relation to new spells of your own is that you can then turn around and sell that spell to other wizards. So what if it costs you 2000gp to research it, if you can turn around and recoup that cost in sales to other groups. Say, a college of wizards, or maybe one other wizard, with an exclusive agreement not to sell it to anyone else for a year...
Thornir Alekeg
Albatross!
Other things that make the rules for researching spells make some sense:
1) If it were cheap and easy, practically everything of value would have been done by now.
2) An original spell is pretty much impossible to counterspell without Dispel Magic.
3) Roleplaying opportunities. In most cases I've encountered, the mages have pretty big egos. Having their own spell can do a lot for an ego if word gets out and the spell has a nice "WOW!" factor. Maybe young people fawning over the mage to become an apprentice, maybe up and coming mages wishing to challenge a "notable" mage, perhaps guilds trying to recruit the mage. Many unique possibilities if you choose to play it up.
1) If it were cheap and easy, practically everything of value would have been done by now.
2) An original spell is pretty much impossible to counterspell without Dispel Magic.
3) Roleplaying opportunities. In most cases I've encountered, the mages have pretty big egos. Having their own spell can do a lot for an ego if word gets out and the spell has a nice "WOW!" factor. Maybe young people fawning over the mage to become an apprentice, maybe up and coming mages wishing to challenge a "notable" mage, perhaps guilds trying to recruit the mage. Many unique possibilities if you choose to play it up.
s/LaSH
First Post
Well, encouraged by interest in my spell research system, I think I'll throw out half my notes and rewrite them in a format more geared towards creating aberrations. But I was going to do that anyway.
And Templetroll will be pleased to learn that flux capacitors are possible, using a system of talismans which can also, amongst other things, be used to turn non-undead creatures and actually give you a bonus for having a rabbit's foot around your neck...
And Templetroll will be pleased to learn that flux capacitors are possible, using a system of talismans which can also, amongst other things, be used to turn non-undead creatures and actually give you a bonus for having a rabbit's foot around your neck...
Bendris Noulg
First Post
Another way to consider the cost is the assumption of a laboratory and library; While it is assumed that these features are available, the cost of them is subsumed into a cash sink. This makes the pay out appear to be related to but a single spell when in fact it simply covers several things.
To counter this effect, I've dramatically reduced the cost of Spell Research, but then have a requirement for Library and Laboratory sizes. These may be obtained through various means (guild, personal aquisition, etc.) and bring their own expense (personal lib/lab is more expensive, but guild membership has annual dues and any other requirements of the organization, which often includes sharing new magics). Essentially, by having these adjacent costs, the cost of the spell itself can be reduced without making it easy to achieve.
The end result is that, instead of the money being expended permenantly, the caster now has a resource that they may use again and again (and the time/money/effort is only lost if they don't).
To counter this effect, I've dramatically reduced the cost of Spell Research, but then have a requirement for Library and Laboratory sizes. These may be obtained through various means (guild, personal aquisition, etc.) and bring their own expense (personal lib/lab is more expensive, but guild membership has annual dues and any other requirements of the organization, which often includes sharing new magics). Essentially, by having these adjacent costs, the cost of the spell itself can be reduced without making it easy to achieve.
The end result is that, instead of the money being expended permenantly, the caster now has a resource that they may use again and again (and the time/money/effort is only lost if they don't).
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