Do we coddle new Players?

[JoeGKushner]

I tend to avoid kililng players deliberately but don't go out of my way to avoid kiling them.

For example, in Slavelords of Cydonia, there are a tribe of warriors who set up an ambush for the players and have strength of numbers and traps on their side. I didn't change the placement of the traps or reduce the strength of the encounter and the players managed to survive it with only a few lasting scars. On the other hand, a few more good dice rolls and it could've been a TPK.

 

[diaglo]

we went thru literally and figuratively hundreds of characters in ye olde dayes.

heck, i saw a player of the new edition, Ryan Boell aka Angelsboi, may he rest in peace, get very distraught over losing his items in game. caused by another player. (not me) it shocked me that a religious player character would be more concerned with losing his material things than his life. he wanted to kill the character and make a new one. but he wanted to do it dramatically dragging the rest of the party into situations where we would get killed too.

i had no problem with that. my problem was the reasoning. items over life.

 

[Mark]

Do we coddle new Players?

Probably. As someone should when teaching a new game. The main problem, in regard to what is being discussed here, is not emphasizing strongly enough that it is just a game and that developing too strong of an emotional attachment to a player character is not a healthy thing to do. That needs to be part of what is taught, and it needs to be taught early in the process, especially with younger players.

 

[EricNoah]

I know, intellectually, that D&D is not a "win/lose" type of game. But when one of my PCs dies, I feel a little bit like I lost at D&D, or failed in some way. I never did have meat-grinder DMs, so maybe that's why. In fact, my first DM (now that I think about it) sometimes went to extreme lengths to keep my PCs alive.

 

[Ozmar]

Why am I hearing the voice of Grandpa Simpson when I read this?

I really think that this may have more to do with age than playstyle. Back in the 80's how old were you? I was 11 in 1981 (when I started playing) and had PCs die left and right. One died before I had a name for him. There was no roleplaying per say and characters were disposable fun.

Today it's a little different. I make up backgrounds, allies, enemies etc all before i sit at the table with a new character. Something I would never even have thought of back in '81.

I would say that if anything some of the gaming community is hostile to new players. At least that is my experience here. There are a few gaming clubs in town and even me, an experienced gamer, had a very hard time trying to join up with them (this is after they were advertising for players - I am not your greasy smelly gamer type but when I met them that was obviously what they were looking for ). I shudder to think how they would have treated a new player or a female one.

As far as coddling new players though? I can't see it as a problem even if it were widespread. New players mean the continuation of our hobby and if that means that those who have access to new players have to let them live for a few levels then that is Ok with me.

IMO, the point of this is not that we "have" to let them live for a few levels in order to keep them hooked on the hobby. We are, in fact, doing them a disservice by coddling them in their gaming infancy. We ought to be strengthening them through trials by fire. How can we expect them to grow into strong, experienced players if they never even lose a character? To build a strong gamer base, you need strength in the individual gamers. You can't just dole out experience points for the characters, you need to give experience to the players as well, and as we all know, experience can't truly be given, it must be earned.

I think that Knights of the Dinner Table has most clearly embodied the spirit of this attitude. Maybe new players should be trained on Hackmaster rather than D&D?

Ozmar the Old-School Gamer

 

[JoeBlank]

I suppose there are a number of elements:
1. Video games and characters having multiple lives - so getting killed is not the end

2. The ease of character creation in earlier editions (so far less work getting there)

3. A greater emphasis on the amateur dramatics rather than killing monsters and taking their stuff from the early days.

All great points, MM. And you mentioned each point without judging whether it is good or bad, just simply the way things were v. the way they are now.

I especially agree about the ease of character creation. Making a new 3.x character can take me weeks, espcially if it is above 1st level, pondering the countless options and reviewing the many resources. Making a new OD&D character takes minutes.

Of course, this only applies to the mechanics, as both can involve a great deal of time in developing a background and personality.

 

[ironmani]

Oooo I knew when I dropped that word, coddle, in the other thread someone would pick up on it. All kidding aside, its up to the DM. I was in a party where we suffered a TPK in the "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil." when the blue dragon showed up. We where totally unprepared and got our asses handed to us. It happens. If the PCs are stupid, then they should be killed. Its a delicate balance. When I run my adventures, I want them to stay alive and if its the case of a bad roll, or if I roll a nasty crit, I'll massage the results, since one bad roll can spell doom for a new player. But if they are getting hammered and it clear they should retreat and dont...well sucks to be you. Personally for me, I would rather have my PC die at lvl 1 or 2 insted of lvl 6 or 7. I tend to develop an attatchment ot my characters by that point.

 

[swrushing]

[/QUOTE]

We didn't fret over PC deaths. It was a game first, and our emotional attachment to our characters was no more than our attachment to characters on a game board.

Sounds like how we gamed back in 1981 too. basically it was a wargame with some flavor.

I run very different games now and expect very different things.

Would new Players, now adays, be well served by going through a low-level meat-grinder dungeon, just to get over the shock of PC death? Let a new Player see characters die off a few times in an introductory dungeon crawl adventure before actually starting a "real" campaign?

Not IMO. Matter of fact, i don't want them caring less about their characters, or getting used to the notion of him maybe dying and wondering about who his replacement will be. one of my players says too often now, he is an old school guy, "i dont care if i lose him, i got a backpack full of other characters to try." he is noit quite in fact playing as bad as that sounds, but not too far off.

Do you see a difference in emotional attachment between a Player with a 10th-level character that is also their first and only character, versus a Player with a 10th-level character that is the 5th character they've played (having gone through the death of the previous 4 at low level)?

yes, i do, though i dont recall any recent enough games that got to 5 kills, but i don't like the lack of emotion. I don't think it helps my game. Its not what i am after.

 

[IronWolf]

I think these days characters tend to have a lot more time invested in them up front making character death a little harder to take. I know in the 1e days I had folder after folder with chracters waiting in the wings ready to be unleashed. Of course they were mainly just sheets with numbers on them and a name, little else. These days a character of mine will have a history, background, etc associated with him from the get go.

Perhaps it is just because I am older and see the game more about backgrounds and roleplaying than just breaking the door down and killing stuff.

 

[der_kluge]

I think it's a gradual shift in the nature of the game. Which is somewhat ironic given where the game seems to be headed, with the rise of miniatures and a more rules-oriented approach.

I think 2nd edition was a larger leap towards the idea of keeping players alive. D&D was born out of wargaming roots, so it was natural to have people die in the early versions of the game.

Nowadays, I'll be damned if I let a DM kill me willy-nilly after I just spent a couple of days writing up 6 pages of character history. That's not fun, that's just plain mean.