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Do we really need Monks?

Remathilis said:
I gotta agree with the opinions of some... D&D is not very cultural specific. Its BASED in a mostly westernized world, but lots of other culture's have permiated: djinni, naga, metalic dragons, ogre-magi, golems, raksasha, yuan-ti, etc.

Thanks for pointing out a couple more odd monsters out. I realize that like the Oni and Naga, I don't use Rakshasa or Yuan-Ti either, for much the same reason I don't use the monk. My feeling is not that D&D is inherently western. Rather my feeling is that if D&D is going to put Eastern archetypes in the game, they should be sufficiently plentiful that you can play them without them sticking out like a sore thumb.

I have would have no objections to the monk being in the rules if there were three other core classes that drew from the same cultural tradition. Similarly, I might employ Ogre Magi if there were also Tengu or Fox People. My feeling is that if D&D is going to provide something in the core rules, they should provide enough of that thing that one can actually use it without it seeming out of place.

I would much rather have oriental stuff presented in a single coherent format (as 3E does in some materials) rather than added, in dribs and drabs, to primarily EUropean material.

I really don't agree, though, that Djinni and Golems were outside of the high medieval mythic reference frame. They penetrated into European myth/history through adjacent cultures.

Lastly, lets not EVEN get into the pseudo-sci-fi elements: Mind Flayers, Psionics, beholders...

Fortunately, psionics have been taken out of the core rules now. I agree that Mind Flayers are an unfortunate holdover that don't especially fit but at least they don't reference a cultural tradition the core rules don't support -- which is what the monk class does.

I guess my beef is this: the core rules should either support Oriental adventuring or not. But having the monk class and a half-dozen asian monsters is an uncomfortable middle ground that makes nobody happy.
 

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Let's see:

basilisk (assyrian)
chimera (assyrian)
cockatrice (Assyrian)
couatl (Mayan)
dinosaurs (pre-history)
dire (prehistoric) animals (Pre-history)
displacer beast (sci-fi)
chromatic dragons (good dragons? China)
djinni (Arabia)
efreeti (Arabia)
ghoul (Arabia)
golem (Jewish myth)
griffon (Assyrian)
hippogriff (Assyrian)
manticore (Iranian)
mummy (Egyptian)
naga (India)
ogre mage (Japan)
rakshasa (India)
roc (Arabia)
sphinx (Egypt)

...
 

Thanks for your inventory Klaus. I think it makes my point. We're talking about what is alien to European myth, not who gets credit for originating things.

basilisk (assyrian)
chimera (assyrian)
cockatrice (Assyrian)
hippogriff (Assyrian)
sphinx (Egypt)
manticore (Iranian)

Part of European mythology since the age of Alexander.

djinni (Arabia)
efreeti (Arabia)
ghoul (Arabia)
roc (Arabia)

Enter European mythology in the 12th century during the Crusades. By the way, ghouls are Persian. Also, of course, the best-known 12th century Persian import: the faerie.

golem (Jewish myth)

Developed in medieval Europe by medieval European Jews.

griffon (Assyrian)

My understanding was that they were Slavic (inherited from the mythical Cimmerians) and entered European myth around the 6th century. They may have entered earlier in the days of the classical Greek colonies on the Sea of Azov.

dinosaurs (pre-history)
dire (prehistoric) animals (Pre-history)
displacer beast (sci-fi)

I'm not concerned about these. They are not referrents to a myth system not supported by D&D.

mummy (Egyptian)

I thought undead mummies were a 19th century invention. Tell me more.

metallic (good dragons? China)
couatl (Mayan)
naga (India)
ogre mage (Japan)
rakshasa (India)

This looks about right to me. A drop in the bucket, not quite enough to do anything with -- like the monk class.
 

fusangite said:
How is this the case? Would Batman be appropriate for D&D if he had a sword?

Batman already exists in D&D. He's a fighter/rogue/couple level of monks character with the serial numbers filed off. And his pseudo-noir feel would fit perfectly in Eberron, especially in a Sharn-based game.


Besides, almost none of the magic items listed in the DMG are even useable by monks, another indicator of how out of place they are.

Just by flipping open the DMG, I see that the first 14 wondrous items are all usable by monks, and the 15th isn't only because it's a wizard exclusive item. The majority of weapon enhancements are likewise available to monks. Sure, he can't use wands or staves, but then, a good chunk of the other classes can't either.


Djinni et al are a great example of what I am talking about. D&D largely taps into crusades-era Europe, when cultural exchange with Islam was at its heaviest and most extreme. Thus, there is penetration of Persian and Arabian myth into Europe in this period, forming, for instance, our present-day ideas about faeries. By the same token, there was no equivalent penetration of Indian or Chinese mythology into European culture and again, D&D reflects this.

D&D largely taps into eras and cultures from all over, not crusader-era Europe. The barbarian is a Conan riff, the druid has nothing in common with druids save the name, and the rogue is as much James Bond as it is anything else.

D&D defaults to polytheism, it has post renaissance era weaponry, it has a spell list almost completely divorced from myth, and an "adventuring" class of citizens melded with a mercantile, metropolitan spirit that recalls modern conceits.

Is there crusades-era influence? Sure. Is it the primary influence? Not in my core books.

Of course not everything in D&D is derived from the mythological beliefs of Europeans and Middle Easterners people in the 13th century. But, of the monsters drawn from mythology, the vast vast majority are. In the Monster Manual, for instance, there is the Naga (India) and the Ogra Mage (Japan); aside from that, there are, as far as I can tell, no other references to mythology east of Persia.

The couatl and rakshasa are also monsters from outside the boundaries of European influence. And the gold dragon is kin to the eastern dragons, right down to the structure of its sinewy body and leonine face - its stylized look can be seen on banners and signs on just about any chinese restaraunt you see.

And in addition to the fact that the "European" monsters in Monster Manual 1 are equaled in number by purely D&D beasts, they're often so divorced from their historical counterparts as to be similar in name only. And when they aren't reimagined, they're inspired by far-ranging eras. The Monster Manual fey, for example, are almost pure little-people Victorian, but they exist side by side with the hydra and the minotaur - and it's doubtful you'd find many Victorians, even the ones who believed in fairies, who would have copped to thinking the hydra was real.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that D&D shouldn't have south and east asian classes and creatures in it. What I am saying is that with so little other Asian stuff, the Monk does not belong in the core rules. He belongs in a rules set that properly supports the class, with other Asian classes, an Asian physics and Asian monsters. But right now, the monk sticks out like a sore thumb and undermines what faint suspension of disbelief we manage to hold onto.

And what I'm saying is that I have a hard time reconciling the idea that the monk hurts mythic versimilitude in ways that Conan, Porthos, Richard the Lionhearted, James Bond, and Dr. Strange teleporting to a trap-filled dungeon to steal gold from a 10-eyed soccer ball does not.
 

I agree that monks are a little out of place in D&D, but I can also see how it might be fun for a PC to play one, so I allow them. As a DM I simply just don't use them as the oriental monk that they are designed as. Instead I make them bodyguards, manservant, boxers, athletes, spies, or any other sudo-modern type I would like to enter into my campaign. It is a popular class among the nobility, and they "duel" each other in fight club type parties. They are more Boxer like in my campaign and in the bigger cities there are huge sporting events where all types of sporting events are held. And of course once every four years (in campaign time) the world comes to gather to wage "war" in the coliseum to bragging rites. Just think of all the trouble and subterfuge that could go on at a sporting event.
 

I like Monks, but I like the Weapon Master class from Black Company a whole lot more. They did away with the mysticism, but kept all the monk stuff that really makes them shine like flurry of blows, and they gain more bonus feats as they gain levels instead of all the eastern-mysticism powers.

For those who don't like the Monk as is, this Weapon Master is what you want.
 

I'm curious. What's so wrong with the mysticism part of the monk class? Why is it so "out there" while teleporting, flying, fireball shooting DBZ wizards are not? ;)
 

Fusangite -> Re: mummies: The whole point of embalming the dead for the egyptians was that the spirit of the deceased could ocasionally want to drop by and check on their descendants (if they're paying proper respect to the ancestors and to the gods, etc.), and they'd need a suitable vessel, i.e., the original mummified body.

Also, the ka departed to the afterlife, but the ba remained inside the mummy. The egyptians feared that a ba would gain control of the corpse, and would enter a reckless rage without the reasoning power of the ka (thing id and superego).
 

I felt that Keith Baker's articles on the Wizards website Blades of the Quori and Monastic Orders were both excellent examples of how to fit monks smoothly into the flavor of a setting. I guess this post qualifies as a shameless plug; I've really enjoyed what Keith Baker has had to say about a lot of things in this little campaign setting that he whipped up. ;) Anyway, if you haven't done so, check these articles out.

Shieldhaven
 

fusangite said:
Thanks for your inventory Klaus. I think it makes my point. We're talking about what is alien to European myth, not who gets credit for originating things.

Define "European Myth".

There are no centaurs in British Myth.
There are no Frost Giants in Roman Myth.
There are no Paladins in Greek Myth.
There are no polythestic religions in Crusader myth (save the Infidels).
There are no druids in Germanic Myth.
There are no dwarves in Spanish Myth.
There are no mummies in Norse Myth.

To say that assyrian and jewish myth is "euro" because of settlers from west (or the crusades allow for arabian myth) is a far stretch. By that locic, most aisan myth is possible because of the Mongols and the Silk Road.

D&D is vaguely euro, but it really is culture neutral.
 

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