Do We Still Need "Oriental Adventures"?

Orientalism -- a wide-ranging term originally used to encompass depictions of Middle Eastern, South Asian, and East Asian cultures -- has gradually come to represent a more negative term. Should Dungeons & Dragons, known for two well-received books titled "Oriental Adventures," have another edition dedicated to "Eastern" cultures?

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Orientalism -- a wide-ranging term originally used to encompass depictions of Middle Eastern, South Asian, and East Asian cultures -- has gradually come to represent a more negative term. Should Dungeons & Dragons, known for two well-received books titled "Oriental Adventures," have another edition dedicated to "Eastern" cultures?

[h=3]A Brief History of Orientalism[/h]For a time, orientalism was a term used by art historians and literary scholars to group "Eastern" cultures together. That changed in 1978 with Edward Said's Orientalism, which argued that treatment of these cultures conflated peoples, times, and places into a narrative of incident and adventure in an exotic land.

It's easy to see why this approach might appeal to role-playing games. Orientalism is one lens to view a non-European culture within the game's context. We previously discussed how "othering" can create a mishmash of cultures, and it can apply to orientalism as well. The challenge is in how to portray a culture with nuance, and often one large region isn't enough to do the topic justice. The concept even applies to the idea of the "East" and the "Orient," which turns all of the Asian regions into one mono-culture. Wikipedia explains the term in that context:

The imperial conquest of "non–white" countries was intellectually justified with the fetishization of the Eastern world, which was effected with cultural generalizations that divided the peoples of the world into the artificial, binary-relationship of "The Eastern World and The Western World", the dichotomy which identified, designated, and subordinated the peoples of the Orient as the Other—as the non–European Self.


Game designers -- who were often admitted fans of Asian cultures -- sought to introduce a new kind of fantasy into traditional Western tropes. Viewed through a modern lens, their approach would likely be different today.
[h=3]The "Oriental" Books in D&D[/h]The original Oriental Adventures was published in 1985 by co-creator of D&D Gary Gygax, David "Zeb" Cook and François Marcela-Froideval. It introduced the ninja, kensai, wu-jen, and shukenja as well as new takes on the barbarian and monk. It was also the first supplement to introduce non-weapn proficiencies, the precursor to D&D's skill system. The book was well-received, and was envisioned by Gygax as an opportunity to reinvigorate the line -- ambitions which collapsed when he left the company. The book's hardcover had the following text printed on the back:

…The mysterious and exotic Orient, land of spices and warlords, has at last opened her gates to the West.


Aaron Trammell provides a detailed analysis of how problematic this one line of text is. The sum of his argument:

Although Gary Gygax envisioned a campaign setting that brought a multicultural dimension to Dungeons & Dragons, the reality is that by lumping together Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Mongolian, Philippine, and “Southeast Asian” lore he and co-authors David “Zeb” Cook and Francois Marcela-Froideval actually developed a campaign setting that reinforced western culture’s already racist understanding of the “Orient.”


The next edition would shift the setting from Kara-Tur (which was later sent in the Forgotten Realms) to Rokugan from the Legend of the Five Rings role-playing game.
[h=3]Controversy of the Five Rings[/h]James Wyatt wrote the revised Oriental Adventures for Third Edition D&D, published by Wizards of the Coast in 2001. It was updated to 3.5 in Dragon Magazine #318.

Legend of the Five Rings, a franchise that extends to card games, is itself not immune to controversy. Quintin Smith got enough comments on his review of the Legend of the Five Rings card game that he included an appendix that looked critically at chanting phrases "banzai!" at conventions and some of the game's art:

Now, I have no idea if this is right or wrong, but I do know that chanting in Japanese at an event exclusively attended by white men and women made me feel a tiny bit weird. My usual headcheck for this is “How would I feel if I brought a Japanese-English friend to the event?” and my answer is “Even more weird.” Personally, I found the game’s cover art to be a little more questionable. I think it’s fantastic to have a fantasy world that draws on Asian conventions instead of Western ones. But in a game that almost exclusively depicts Asian men and women, don’t then put white people on the cover! It’s such a lovely piece of art. I just wish she looked a little bit less like a cosplayer.


Perhaps in response to this criticism, Fantasy Flight Games removed the "banzai" chant as a bullet point from its web site. The page also features several pictures of past tournament winners, which provides some context as to who was shouting the chant.
[h=3]Fifth Edition and Diversity[/h]By the time the Fifth Edition of D&D was published, the game's approach to diverse peoples had changed. Indigo Boock on GeekGirlCon explains how:

Diversity is strength. The strongest adventuring party is the most diverse adventuring party. Try thinking about it in terms of classes—you have your healers, fighters, and magic users. Same goes for diversity. Different outlooks on life create more mobility and openness for different situations. Jeremy also explained that it was crucial that the art also reflected diversity, as did Art Director Kate Erwin. With this, they tried to make sure that there was a 50/50 split of people who identify as male and people who identify as female in the illustrations.


Trammell points out how these changes are reflected in the art of the core rule books:

First, there are illustrations: an East Asian warlock, a female samurai, an Arabian princess, an Arab warrior, and a Moor in battle, to name a few. Then, there are mechanics: the Monk persists as a class replete with a spiritual connection to another world via the “ki” mechanic. Scimitars and blowguns are commonly available as weapons, and elephants are available for purchase as mounts for only 200 gold. Although all of these mechanics are presented with an earnest multiculturalist ethic of appreciation, this ethic often surreptitiously produces a problematic and fictitious exotic, Oriental figure. At this point, given the embrace of multiculturalism by the franchise, it seems that the system is designed to embrace the construction of Orientalist fictional worlds where the Orient and Occident mix, mingle, and wage war.


A good first step is to understand the nuances of a region by exploring more than one culture there. Sean "S.M." Hill's "The Journey to..." series is a great place to start, particularly "Romance of the Three Kingdoms."

D&D has come a long way, but it still has some work to do if it plans to reflect the diversity of its modern player base and their cultures...which is why it seems unlikely we'll get another Oriental Adventures title.

Mike "Talien" Tresca is a freelance game columnist, author, communicator, and a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to http://amazon.com. You can follow him at Patreon.
 

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Michael Tresca

Michael Tresca

Maybe we should refer to it as "verisimilitude". I'm curious how many people want granular role-playing rules for medieval knights give two slots about how much "verisimilitude" is in their non-Western games.

Which kinda demonstrates the problem.

This is a tricky gray area because some people do want that extra level of historical detail, but I think most people just want cool, interesting and exotic....so long as it's also reasonably accurate. For some of us, it's enough that we don't see a sourcebook modeled on "Not China" featuring samurai warriors and the dude from American Ninja. For others, there's a desire for something more substantive. RPGs have an outlet for this with historical-themed sourcebooks (See decades of GURPS, Mythras, BRP games, every book published by Alephtar, the Historical resources of 90's TSR, etc.) but only recently has the discussion got confused by people who mistake writing cool game books set in various cultures or emulations/cyphers for said cultures as being cultural appropriation (and also, who mistake a lot of stuff for appropriation that isn't, or who think all appropriation as bad; more topics to discuss), when in fact this is a different phenomena, and not a bad one necessarily. When a book sucks because it's riddled with tropes and stereotypes it sucks because of those reasons, and not necessarily because it is disrespectful to its source; it's bad no matter what. But D&D is not a great venue for realism, and as a result, this is a hard target to hit. But not impossible, and I'd love to see people try this, for both western and non-western sources of inspiration. And the fact that most publishing output is online and not for real profit makes weird ventures like accurate depictions of specific Asian cultures or actual efforts to integrate medieval chivalry with D&D entirely possible. (But no, WotC with the goal it has should not even bother, imo, unless they take the time to make it relevant --and work-- for the contemporary audience, no matter how annoying that might be to the old guard).
 

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Afrodyte

Explorer
To respond to the OP's question, I think I'd be far less interested in an Oriental Adventures setting than, say, Wuxia Adventures. A random hodge-podge of vaguely Pan-Asian elements is far less interesting to me as a player than digging into a different genre of storytelling that alters or upends a lot of the defaults of contemporary high or epic fantasy. This is fairly consistent with my tastes. I'm less interested in standard D&D settings that draw from a bunch of different media with a hollow core than I am in games with a clear thematic and aesthetic focus.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Because it comes off as though you are virtue signalling on the one hand and then showing your own ignorance on the other.

There are some codewords which raise red flags. Like using "Social Justice Warrior" as a pejorative, we're not going to be using insulting, dismissive terms like "virtue signalling" in the same way.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
I'm not going to get into this again; especially if it's going to be with people who have already decided what history and the current world are like and aren't interested in having that worldview challenged with actual facts or knowledge.

I've gone into all this in much greater detail in the Africa thread, chase those down if you're interested in hearing what I have to say in response to this nonsense, because I'm not interested in retyping it.
 

stargazera5

Explorer
I’m only seeing his idea of historical accuracy from people trying to dismiss concerns about the books in question.

It’s weird.

The rest of us are trying to have a completely different discussion, that in no way assumes any sort of historical accuracy.

Of course, when we get into the details, there will always be such debates, whether we’re discussing long words or kusari-gama, but the reason that OA is problematic has nothing to do with historical accuracy.

Again, no one minds Dwarves and Hobbits given a mission by a disguised Oni tricked into fighting a gorgon in Waterdeep.

But Waterdeep also isn’t a pastiche of any real world culture, nor is it mixing obvious pastiches into a meaningless hodgepodge with no attempt to build a genuinely new world.

I don’t understand what is so hard to see about the difference.

Because much of the Fantasy Genre is ultimately based on a pastiche of European tropes and historical medieval European culture. In many ways it's almost a caricature of it as it ignores the wide cultural variety that the basic formula was expressed. So when you talk about Waterdeep, it most certainly has a lineage that goes back through the genre to mythological pan-European culture, in the same way OA goes to a mythological pan-Asian culture. To complain about one without complaining about the other is rather mind-blowing to be honest.
 


Aldeon

First Post
The term "Oriental Adventures" sounds dumb to me, I've always disliked the title. Honestly I refuse to play in any "asian-styled campaigns" simply for the fact that it breeds stereotypes and limits roleplaying potential. Every time there's an opening for an asian-style campaign at my local store, the (usually white, sometimes black) DM throws in houserules or variant rules based on the Honor System and really pigeonholes what we can do as characters as if honor is some special asian cultural cornerstone. It's really not that important. Our cultures are typically more polite but honorable? Not anymore than other cultures. European cultures have the concept of honor built into their society but it isn't shoehorned into every european-styled campaign. Honor systems should be for campaigns which feature royalty or knights or something in which honor actually matters. Just being an asian-styled setting shouldn't necessitate honor rules.
 

Mercurius

Legend
I think several people above nailed the fact that standard vanilla-esque fantasy settings are already amalgams of European cultures to various degrees, so an amalgamated "Oriental" setting isn't inherently a bad thing.

Furthermore, the reason the Orient is still the "exotic Other" is that the vast majority of game designers are Westerners. Again, not inherently a bad or racist thing.

Now how we treat the "Other" is another matter. If an Oriental book peddled in FuManchuism, that would be problematic and disrespectful. But ninjas and mixing up Japanese, Korean and Chinese culture (etc) isn't inherently disrespectful - no more than mixing up English, Irish, French, etc.

In other words, let's all be friends ;)
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
This is just white guilt handwringing. It's utterly irrelevant. You're just using accusatory language -- "exploited and mangled" -- to make it sound like the authors of "Oriental Adventures" are guilty of some crime, but that's total nonsense.

Look, this is all pure virtue-signalling. It's lazy slacktivism. There are real problems in the world, and if you want to address them, go ahead. But this is not a real problem. This is some :):):):):):):):) nonsense that you can inflate into a problem, then pretend you are addressing the problem by whinging pointlessly on the internet.

But you know what? This isn't going to make the world a better place. It isn't going to achieve anything. It's just a way for you to strike a self-righteous pose, hold your nose up in the air and delude yourself into thinking you're morally superior...because you've turned Asians into the pathetic wretches of history, poor perpetual victims.

Completely inappropriate, and breaking several rules all in one go. Using coded insulting terms like "virtue signalling", profanity, general name calling. Don't post in this thread again, please.
 

Skepticultist

Banned
Banned
I'm not going to get into this again; especially if it's going to be with people who have already decided what history and the current world are like and aren't interested in having that worldview challenged with actual facts or knowledge.

Nice bit of passive-aggression there. What exactly makes you an authority? Why is that you are in a position to educate us, but we aren't in a position to educate you? Why do you assume that you are automatically right, and everyone who disagrees with you is ignorant?

I think one of the reasons these arguments become so hostile is because the people who start them, whether you call them "social justice warriors" or "progressives" (a term I hate, as these sort of shallow, intellectual void identity politics has nothing to do with progressive politics) start from the position that you are smarter, more knowledgeable, and morally superior to all of us plebian ignoramuses. It's extremely self-righteous and condescending, and it makes it extremely easy to hate people like you.

For example, you asked if I had ever heard of The Opium Wars, as if I'm some kind of idiot. Except you asked that as if somehow supported your claim that Asians have been stripped of their ability to tell their own stories. Which is, again, clearly nonsense. It's a completely inane argument that doesn't even begin to support your claim. How does a war that ended 158 years ago prevent the Chinese from telling their own stories!?! In what universe does this make any kind of sense?

Let me ask you a question: Have you ever seen The Opium War? It's a 1997 historical epic directed by Xie Jin, produced in China. So much for the Chinese not being able to tell their own stories.

EDIT: Posted this before I received the notice to not post in this thread again.
 

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