Do you allow the Spiked Chain in 3.5 as-is?

[Darklone]

Nifft, your combo is interesting, but you can't dump dex bonus into a power attack -- you can only dump BAB into a power attack. Still, a finessable weapon that one can power attack with and has the ability to attack people at 5' and 10' is nice. Don't try to trip anyone if you are a halfling though.

Halfling spiked chain wielders are good at disarming though

The fun is, with the mentioned combo, a halfling can cause more damage than a human on average... or simply hit better.

 

[mayanglyph]

Funny how so many games keep the spiked chian as is but never see them played in-game.

Exactly.

The spiked chain games that I've played in are constant exercises of 5' moves and trip/AoO max'ing. Many enemies can't effectively mount an attack on a high-strength chain max'er & a supporting group.

Run forward to try to get within 5' reach, get tripped & suffer huge penalties/take damage. Take a 5' move to get to 10' reach (intending to take another 5' move the next round... noting that "You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance")... the chain guy hits/trips you at 10' reach, and takes a 5' move backwards to put you out of effective range.
Use a 10' reach weapon that isn't a cheesy spiked chain, and you can be threatened by 5' reach weapons (including the spiked chain) that you can't respond to.

And Trip attacks are made against Touch AC (which ignores armor)... which is insanely good.

Combat Reflexes is the big killer because of the 10' reach/5' threaten. A fairly constant declaration is "I try to move within 10' reach of every enemy" unless I force the use of miniatures.

The other feats are gravy... Finesse, Improved Trip, Disarm etc. Combat Expertise/Improved Trip are stumbling blocks... but that's just part of the overall min/max build, and factoring 13 INT is really easy with the point-buy method... PLUS, if you just dump into Strength, the +4 STR stat mod for Improved Trip isn't that important anyway.

It really is all about tripping and 10'/5' threatening (AoOs). It bugs the heck out of me because it forces me to design encounters based on rules crap for SINGLE players rather than fun for an entire group.

 

[FireLance]

Exactly.

The spiked chain games that I've played in are constant exercises of 5' moves and trip/AoO max'ing. Many enemies can't effectively mount an attack on a high-strength chain max'er & a supporting group.

Naturally, the spiked chain fighter will play to his strengths, if you let him.

Run forward to try to get within 5' reach, get tripped & suffer huge penalties/take damage. Take a 5' move to get to 10' reach (intending to take another 5' move the next round... noting that "You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance")... the chain guy hits/trips you at 10' reach, and takes a 5' move backwards to put you out of effective range.

There are several ways to get around this problem. Ranged attacks and spells are the most obvious. Spring Attack is another. You could also swarm the spiked chain fighter with more opponents than he has AOOs (and each point of Dexterity means less points in Strength in point-buy games). Or you could just use big, tough creatures that just soak the AOO damage and close to give the spiked chain fighter a real pounding.

Use a 10' reach weapon that isn't a cheesy spiked chain, and you can be threatened by 5' reach weapons (including the spiked chain) that you can't respond to.

Just take a 5-ft step back and attack.

And Trip attacks are made against Touch AC (which ignores armor)... which is insanely good.

The initial touch attack is to check whether you can make the trip attack in the first place. Even if you hit, you're into opposed check territory, and if you don't succeed, you could end up tripped instead of your opponent. Trip is useful against opponents of up to your size and strength, but against larger and stronger opponents, it's less useful. Plus, you can also trip with a whip (at longer range, too), a guisarme, a halberd or a flail. If it is a problem, it's not unique to the spiked chain.

Combat Reflexes is the big killer because of the 10' reach/5' threaten. A fairly constant declaration is "I try to move within 10' reach of every enemy" unless I force the use of miniatures.

You need good Dexterity to get the most use of Combat Reflexes, and in point-buy games, that means less Strength (which makes trip less of a problem). Moving within 10 feet of every enemy isn't a great tactic for AOOs anyway, since spellcasters can take a 5-ft step out of reach, and meleers can take a 5-ft step to close.

The other feats are gravy... Finesse, Improved Trip, Disarm etc. Combat Expertise/Improved Trip are stumbling blocks... but that's just part of the overall min/max build, and factoring 13 INT is really easy with the point-buy method... PLUS, if you just dump into Strength, the +4 STR stat mod for Improved Trip isn't that important anyway.

As mentioned, for Combat Reflexes you need good Dexterity and for tripping you need good Strength, and Intelligence 13 for Improved Trip. In a point-buy game, there is a natural trade-off.

It really is all about tripping and 10'/5' threatening (AoOs). It bugs the heck out of me because it forces me to design encounters based on rules crap for SINGLE players rather than fun for an entire group.

Try designing a few encounters around ranged weapons, spells, incorporeal creatures, grapplers, creatures with Spring Attack, and really big creatures that soak AOO damage and close to give the spiked chain fighter a real pounding.

If all the encounters are designed around straight melee combat, it's not difficult to see why the spiked chain fighter is effective.

 

[Shadow-DM]

Hello everyone.

This is my first post on this forum. Today I had a new player entering as a guest in my regular epic campain. That player has a level 25 rogue with a 28 dex. He tooks as feat : Exotic Weapon (spiked chain), Weapon Finess (spiked chain), combat reflex, Opportunist, Linguering Domage (epic), and Sneak attack of oportunity (epic). Her rogue got a sneak attack of 13D6 and can have up to 9 AoO.

At one point she was alone in a 10' wide corridor where 7 guards miraclously spotted her. She won initiative and set up as ready. As they close in to her they all provoqued AoO when moving into the 5' away squares.

I will find the appropriate section to address the Sneak attack and how it should work with AoO but Im overly concerned about a char who could very easely with a spiked chain, at the moment, with 9AoO and 4 regular attack do more than 630 damage in a single round

 

[FireLance]

Hi Shadow-DM, welcome to the boards.

I'm in a bit of a rush, so I'll just make a few quick comments.

1) The rogue in question is an Epic character. Epic characters are expected to be able to pull off mind-boggling stunts. At least, the current Epic rules allow them to do so.

2) It is not entirely a spiked chain problem. Any other reach weapon would have allowed the rogue to pull off the same tactic. Admittedly, she may have been less accurate as the spiked chain is the only reach weapon that allows you to use Weapon Finesse.

3) The character is specially tuned to take advantage of situations like this, with Combat Reflexes, Sneak Attack of Opportunity and Lingering Damage. This is about as bad as this character will get.

4) The tactic itself is highly situation-specific. It relies for its effectiveness on enemies provoking attacks of opportunity and being vulnerable to sneak attacks. This tactic is easily countered by cautious enemies who do not provoke AOOs, and enemies that are immune to sneak attacks, e.g. constructs, elementals, oozes, undead, and anybody wearing Fortification armor.

5) Opportunist requires someone else to hit the enemy. A rogue cannot use the ability when fighting alone. Plus, it can only be used once per round, even if you have Combat Reflexes.

6) One final point: the real issue (as you have pointed out) seems to be the epic feat Sneak Attack of Opportunity rather than the spiked chain. Without that, the rogue will be down to regular damage on an AOO.

All in all, this is not a bad thing. You can put the rogue in a situation where she can really shine (and give her bragging rights about the time she cut down nine elite guards in a single round), and still challenge her in other areas.

 

[rounser]

I'd prefer no PC uses it. Not because it's unbalanced, but because it's a silly weapon that threatens suspension of disbelief. (Yes, moreso than supernatural special abilities do. )

 

[Prince of Happiness]

My house rule is to not allow them.

 

[Ace]

See, nobody in our game has used it, either.

I'm wondering...if it's so obviously broken, why isn't everybody using it?

Brad

I have never used it IMC or as a player though I do have a cool Reaper figure to use someday

I don't think its really broken -- YMMV

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

Yes, I use it as is.

None of my players have built a Spike Chain wielding Character or Cohort, and I find it's a useful weapon both for some of my favorite monsters (Cornugons) and classed creatures.

J. Grenemyer