Planescape Do You Care About Planescape Lore?

[Weather Report]

Eladrin were not a Planescape creature in 3e. They were core. They were right there in the MM. Any Planescape specific lore about them wasn't in the 3e MM. So, changing eladrin into blink elves isn't that huge of a change. You're taking a pretty minor creature that never gained any traction and repurposing it to something pretty closely related.

It was a Huge change, it's like suddenly calling gnomes, Tanar'ri, and they were not a minor creature, and they obviously did have traction as they carried over from 2nd to 3rd Ed.

 

[Weather Report]

OK, but that means Gygax's PHB names for the planes, and the classic Monster Manual descriptions for their inhabitants. (Eg no Blood War.)

Fine, I don't think the Blood War should be core, and bring back Concordant Opposition!

 

[Stoat]

Serious question. When did Eladrin (as outsiders) enter the game and what were they? I don't remember them from 1E or 2E.

 

[Alzrius]

So, we are forced to kowtow to Planescape, despite none of the material actually showing up in core D&D in any edition.

So, no, it's really not a strawman.

It's such a big strawman that it's practically the Wicker Man.

Using terms like "we are forced to kowtow" is an attempt to conjure up the same "they won't let us play the way we want" sentiment that keeps popping up every time any kind of change is proposed. People always mock that sentiment - correctly - by saying that WotC won't kick down your doors and force you to change your campaign, which is why any idea about being oppressed by Planescape is nonsense.

Insofar as lore is concerned, I think it's a good thing. I buy written products because I want them to do the heavy lifting for me; I'm paying someone else to do the majority of the imagining, so that I can go in and then make whatever changes on top of that suit me. I am not paying for a bare-bones amount of material that then leaves the majority of the work unfinished - if I wanted that, I wouldn't be buying the material in the first place.

Less is not more; more is more. Or, to put it another way, subtraction is easier than addition when it comes to game material. It's far less work to glance at something, say "nope, not using this" than it is to stare at a blank page and try to fill it.

Planescape lore is a good thing, because the alternative is an underdeveloped outline.

 

[Weather Report]

Serious question. When did Eladrin (as outsiders) enter the game and what were they? I don't remember them from 1E or 2E.

They were released in a 2nd Ed Planescape Monstrous Compendium, they are the CG exemplar race (like Devils are the LE exemplar race), powerful fey-like humanoids.

 

[Alzrius]

Quick, name 3 pre-4e modules that have an eladrin in them, outside of a Planescape module. I can think of one that comes from the tail end of Paizo's Savage Tide AP. But, outside of that? Nothing.

Vexia and Shenda, from Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk.

Isolde, from Carnival (in the adventure section at the end).

Queen Morwel, from "The Quicksilver Hourglass," Dungeon #123.

Next!

 

[Weather Report]

Vexia and Shenda, from Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk.

Isolde, from Carnival.

Sirocco and Twilight, from the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Next!

Nice, I'm impressed.

Is Carnival a Ravenloft adventure?

 

[Alzrius]

Nice, I'm impressed.

Is Carnival a Ravenloft adventure?

Carnival is, strictly speaking, a sourcebook. However, given that it has adventure scenarios at the end (and that it all revolves around Isolde, an eladrin), I figured that counted.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that multiple eladrin show up in Dungeon #149, which Hussar mentioned, including Celeste, Sir Andros Fearnaught, and Gwynharwyf.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] So, your example of TSR/WotC injecting unwanted Planescape lore into other books (apparently to appease some elitist Planescape lobby) is, "the core 3e rules and monster sourcebooks in general"? Could you narrow it down anymore?

As an aside, I always thought the criticism of angels in 4e is that they could be evil and that they didn't support classical medieval church lore...not that they weren't divided into devas, planetars, and assimom like in Planescape. But maybe I'm just out of touch with the Internet criticism.

 

[Obryn]

2e Planescape added a lot of material, but with slim exception it didn't retcon previously established material.

You think?

I don't think it resembles the 1e MotP much at all... And the 1e MotP is one of my own favorite D&D books of all time, in all its wackiness.

-O