D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

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I want to start a new thread on this idea of exploration. {snip} But I'm not really used to the idea of exploring a world, or a series of events, that's already written and that the players want to "relive" by means of the game.
By all means!

One of my most successful campaigns revolved around the events that took place across three Realms novels set in Cormyr (Cormyr; Beyond the High Road; Death of the Dragon). None of the players had read those particular novels, which was to my advantage, though one player picked them up after the long Cormyr campaign arc ended and the players elected to explore various spots all over the Realms.

Note: I like to think that campaign inspired one other player in the group to start reading Realms novels too, and I feel pretty good about that.

Generally speaking, I wouldn't say that players who are enthusiastic about playing in a given setting are primarily driven to relive at the gaming table the events they might have read in an official novel. It's more that they want just to be a part of whatever area of the Realms they've fixed in their minds, which naturally includes famous NPCs (read: novel characters), amazing places (like Waterdeep), and possibly events. It's sort of the analog/tabletop version of being in an MMO or similar.

Looking forward to the new thread!
 

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To name a recent controversial proposed change, psionics originating in the Far Realm.
That's not a proposed change - it's been canon since the 4e PHB3 (2010) and maybe before that - I'm not sure what parts of PHB3 were previewed.

PHB3, pp 4-5:

The alien creatures and defling energy of the Far Realm erupted into reality . . . It was at this time . . . that the gods' mortal servants first learned to harness psionic power. . . .

Some speculate that psionic magic is a force that originates in the Far Realm . . . Others . . . believe that [psionic] power is the world's response to the intrusion of the Far Realm, similar to a mortal body's reaction to disease.​

Personally, I would think that this is easily ignored. I think this is one way in which it's actually quite different from the imagined example posted by [MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION] - the latter posited a significant change/development to a piece of setting history and technology that is itself likely to be a focus of play in an Eberron game. Whereas the metaphysical origins of psionics being linked to the Far Realm is not likely to interact with any other details of play in most campaigns, except for the pre-existing stuff like mind flayers, gith etc being psionic.

(Doesn't it also satisfy the desiderata of being an addition rather than a change - what earlier piece of lore about the origins of psionics does it overwrite?)

Was there anyone really confused by 40 years of having non-elemental Giants wandering around?
Who said anyone was confused by that? I first ran Against the Giants around 1985. I wasn't confused then. I'm not confused now.

I last ran G2 a couple of years ago (actual play reports here and here). I think this idea that people will get confused about frost giants (or any other giants) because of different takes on giants over the editions is grossly exaggerated.
 

Largely, I mean understanding the value of the thing for others before you decide that your version offers more value for them. How many pages of justification you publish won't fix a broken assumption about that value.
"Understanding the value of the thing for others", in the context of this sort of commercial publishing, = market research.

I think it's notorious that 5e was written with more market research than 4e. What is less discussed is that settings like Dark Sun, Planescape, even Eberron, didn't have the same sort of market research - there's something to be said for leading rather than following, even though it can be riskier from a commercial point of view.

A further phenomenon is when the views of certain members of a potential audience gain a degree of influence out of proportion to their numerical significance. If every fan site attacks a product, that can affect its broader performance (eg by affecting the reviews people will read, the stories they will hear) even if the attacks are grounded in things that might not be noticed by the blk of potential purchasers. Clearly 5e took steps to deal with this phenomenon that 4e did not.

I still don't think any of this relates to the "default effect", nor to communication breakdowns. The dislike (in many case, "hate" would not be too strong a word) one sees for aspecgts of the 4e lore isn't because people felt a cost in ignoring it. It's because they regarded as an aesthetic affront. You can see that in the way it is spoken about, in the dismissive terminology used (eg "blink elves", etc.

Understanding these sorts of responses, how to avoid them, etc, belongs to the study of advertising, brand management and the like. It's not a literary problem, nor a problem in the coordination of expectations among players. I've not come across a single person being confused, in any significant way, by 4e lore. It's about assuring potential customers - particularly those who are at the centre rather than the periphery of group attitude formation - that the product affirms rather than departs from their desires for the "brand".
 

Again, my proposition isn't that such things should "never" change.

Only that their changes should be well-considered and take into account this cost.

[snip Eberron example]

I don't know all of (or probably even the most relevant) concerns for the D&D team's production. Maybe they still make the change because orphan blood is the hot new thing in marketable products down in Hollywood and this would ensure a D&D movie gets made about orphan-blood warforged or something. Given some of the 5e changes so far (several bits from Curse of Strahd and Volo's Guide to Monsters that are pretty narmed), I don't have much confidence that this voice is present, or loud enough.

The problem is always someone's well-considered idea is someone-else's campaign-ruining change.

Someone thought allowing any race to be any classes ruined the dynamics of both. No longer were paladin's the paragon of HUMAN virtue. No longer were dwarves and halflings so anti-magical in their nature that casting spells was an impossibility. No longer were gnomes love for illusion so great that it allowed them one specific form of magic specialty at the cost of all others. It created a game where elf barbarians, gnome necromancers, dwarf druids, and halfling paladins were possible; destroying the fundamental story of both those classes and those races.

Someone thought the sorcerer destroyed decades of D&D lore, which showed there was only two means to acquiring magic; study of arcane tomes and spellbooks (which required a high-degree of Intellect) or faith, intuition, and godly-blessing (which required a high-amount of insight). Now, a third type of caster shows up with the X-Men background story, casting magic because they are sociable and charming? Whatever internal logic D&D magic had for 20+ years is out the window.

Someone thought warlords were are terrible idea. Lets give mundane, normal humans powers akin to the god-granted divine magic of clerics. Healing, buffing, moving others, even removing some conditional effects all through presence and tactical leadership. Worse, the class called fighter, which was for decades the go-to in tactical combat (as it was known of in D&D) didn't get any of this, some new class came in and stole both the fighter and cleric's shtick on one move.

Those are just core-assumptions. Someone thought it was a good idea to have Geoff overrun by giants. Someone thought it was a good idea to put a giant chasm in the middle of the Ravenloft Core. Someone thought it was a good idea to remove the factions from Planescape. Someone thought it was a good idea to allow any race (even warforged; must be the orphan blood) to manifest dragonmarks rather than be tied to specific members of specific families (or certain races).

And way back when, someone thought it was a good idea to allow demi-humans to select a human character class (even from a limited selection) rather than be its own unique class; forever changing the world from its humanocentric nature.

D&D: being Ruined Forever since 1975.
 

That's not a proposed change - it's been canon since the 4e PHB3 (2010) and maybe before that - I'm not sure what parts of PHB3 were previewed.
Ah, I see. I haven't played much 4E, so I'm not familiar with all the setting details. If it's actually canon in 4E, that makes it an even better example.

You say it's easily ignored, but I've seen plenty of posters here who disagree.
 

The problem is always someone's well-considered idea is someone-else's campaign-ruining change.
...
D&D: being Ruined Forever since 1975.

And this creates problems! Like I pointed out upthread, I'm remembering a [MENTION=697]mearls[/MENTION] quote somewhere in the run up to 5e where he's basically saying that the dramatic changes that D&D has gone through maybe weren't the best idea. That big edition changes create rifts and lose players. A casual observer can see this clearly with the Edition Wars and Pathfinder and the OSR. 5e seems to be designed with that assumption, too - in the many ways it recalls AD&D, for instance (Bounded Accuracy being one of the big deals there). It goes out of it's way in many ways to remind you that it's the same game (whether that game is 3e or 2e or even 1e or OD&D in certain ways).

The same logic applies to settings and lore and "canon." Dramatic changes create difficulties, breed rifts, and stop people from enjoying a setting.

The fact that it's always somebody's campaign-ruining change means that this cost should be considered! You know that your change is going to wreck someone's game, going to make playing with your Brilliant Idea (or with the Old Idea) more difficult. Your change needs to be worth that cost. Sometimes it will be anyway, but it's gotta be something earned.

pemerton said:
"Understanding the value of the thing for others", in the context of this sort of commercial publishing, = market research.
That's one vein, but it's not the only source of blood. A lore specialist might be a valuable hire. A collection of the text of all D&D books evar might give you something to search and find obscure references with. It's also important that in the corporate culture these voices are empowered. If in some meeting someone's afraid to speak up about the problems with Chris Perkins's Brilliant New Idea, or if their perspectives are just dismissed by a management or marketing team eager to make changes, they might as well not be there, regardless of their position or the amount of information that's out there. The culture is probably the hardest element to change, but it's also the most vital. The other changes are very useful, but they only work well if plugged into the right organizational decision-making process.

pemerton said:
The dislike (in many case, "hate" would not be too strong a word) one sees for aspecgts of the 4e lore isn't because people felt a cost in ignoring it. It's because they regarded as an aesthetic affront. You can see that in the way it is spoken about, in the dismissive terminology used (eg "blink elves", etc.
You've still got a ways to go to understand the root cause if you stop there. Why did they regard it as "an aesthetic affront"? What did it ask them to do that they were hostile to doing? When someone says that warlords are screaming your arm back on, what are they actually opposing? Where do their existing assumptions butt up against the new ones?

From where I'm sitting I can see that in most cases, it asked them to change their default assumptions about the lore of their games too dramatically. It asked them to abandon stories that they wanted to tell in favor of these new stories that the designers wanted to tell. Again, if you ask someone who "hated" 4e lore if they would hate it quite as much if the game explicitly said that this was some "Nentir Vale Adventures" campaign setting, you will often get a much, much different response to the lore.

pemerton said:
I've not come across a single person being confused, in any significant way, by 4e lore. It's about assuring potential customers - particularly those who are at the centre rather than the periphery of group attitude formation - that the product affirms rather than departs from their desires for the "brand".
The rejection of 4e lore by some folks is, in part, an attempt to avoid confusion over what "playing D&D" means to them. "Playing D&D" didn't mean teleporting extraplanar PC's before, and, to them, it still doesn't, and it never will.

But, every time that person signs up to a new D&D game, they still need to figure out which version of "playing D&D" the group is using. And if they're willing to play that version.

With specific settings, this becomes "Playing Forgotten Realms" or "Playing Dragonlance."

This is tied up in branding, too, but branding isn't separate from in-play experience. Part of the job of a brand is to set expectations for your product's use.

pemerton said:
Personally, I would think that this is easily ignored. I think this is one way in which it's actually quite different from the imagined example posted by @I'm A Banana - the latter posited a significant change/development to a piece of setting history and technology that is itself likely to be a focus of play in an Eberron game. Whereas the metaphysical origins of psionics being linked to the Far Realm is not likely to interact with any other details of play in most campaigns, except for the pre-existing stuff like mind flayers, gith etc being psionic.
You're writing off the different existing psionics stories too easily. Having psionics originate from the far realm does change every setting's narrative of psionics and is likely to be the focus of play in a game with a psionic character. It is likely to link to that character's origins, motivations, and goals. It is a different narrative for some psionics, and if asked to accept it as The Story For All Psionics, I expect some grousing and unhappiness and added confusion and trouble. If it's instead One Story For Some Psionics (in combination with other stories), I imagine that'd mostly evaporate.
 
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The fact that it's always somebody's campaign-ruining change means that this cost should be considered! You know that your change is going to wreck someone's game, going to make playing with your Brilliant Idea (or with the Old Idea) more difficult. Your change needs to be worth that cost. Sometimes it will be anyway, but it's gotta be something earned.

But this a catch-22; since you're ALWAYS going to offending someone with a lore change. I've been on this board long enough to remember the disdain 3e earned over "dwarven wizards" or how 4e's paladins no longer being tied to LG was sacrilege. I'm sure if I took a poll of ENWorld in 2016, both of those ideas would be embraced as generally good and positive changes, but they WERE controversial (and still are in some small pockets of the community) and took years to reach that level of acceptance.

Your concern today with Monolithic Tiefling Appearance (MTA) is yesterdays Dwarven Wizard Allowance (DWA). Its last decade's Assassin Removal Disapproval (ARD). And further back than that, [MENTION=2885]diaglo[/MENTION] is still complaining that they added the "Thief" class.
 

But this a catch-22; since you're ALWAYS going to offending someone with a lore change. I've been on this board long enough to remember the disdain 3e earned over "dwarven wizards" or how 4e's paladins no longer being tied to LG was sacrilege. I'm sure if I took a poll of ENWorld in 2016, both of those ideas would be embraced as generally good and positive changes, but they WERE controversial (and still are in some small pockets of the community) and took years to reach that level of acceptance.

Your concern today with Monolithic Tiefling Appearance (MTA) is yesterdays Dwarven Wizard Allowance (DWA). Its last decade's Assassin Removal Disapproval (ARD). And further back than that, [MENTION=2885]diaglo[/MENTION] is still complaining that they added the "Thief" class.

And it all deserves to be considered! Again, this doesn't necessarily mean "don't make the change," but it does mean "know that if you make the change, you're going to wreck someone's game. Is that still a change that you'd like to make?" It sets the bar for change higher than someone in Redmond thinking it's cool. It's not a catch-22, because it's not like all situations of wrecking someone's game need to be off the table. Sometimes, it will be worth it! But other times...you know, maybe gnomes don't HAVE TO be able to be wild sorcerers if that's not in support of the heroes the setting wants to encourage (or whatever).
 

And it all deserves to be considered! Again, this doesn't necessarily mean "don't make the change," but it does mean "know that if you make the change, you're going to wreck someone's game. Is that still a change that you'd like to make?" It sets the bar for change higher than someone in Redmond thinking it's cool. It's not a catch-22, because it's not like all situations of wrecking someone's game need to be off the table. Sometimes, it will be worth it! But other times...you know, maybe gnomes don't HAVE TO be able to be wild sorcerers if that's not in support of the heroes the setting wants to encourage (or whatever).

This is an impossible bar to meet. What's acceptable to you may be unacceptable to me. What I shrug at as a minor backstory change could completely derail years of your games history. I mean, someone okayed the Spellplague knowing full well it nuking years of Realmslore in a single swoop, but the cost was worth it to get Faerun to align with the new Fourth Edition design paradigm. You're asserting someone at WotC should be able to guess how every change will affect every gamer out there, which is tantamount to predicting the Butterfly Effect.
 

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