D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

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This is an impossible bar to meet. What's acceptable to you may be unacceptable to me. What I shrug at as a minor backstory change could completely derail years of your games history. I mean, someone okayed the Spellplague knowing full well it nuking years of Realmslore in a single swoop, but the cost was worth it to get Faerun to align with the new Fourth Edition design paradigm. You're asserting someone at WotC should be able to guess how every change will affect every gamer out there, which is tantamount to predicting the Butterfly Effect.

It's not an impossible bar to meet - it just means that you have to consider if the change you're making is worth wrecking someone's game over. Presume you're going to wreck someone's game with a change you make. That is the baseline. That's the real negative effect of what you're doing. Don't deny it. Look it in the face. See what you're doing. Go from there.

It's not a stopping point, it's a starting point.
 

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It's not an impossible bar to meet - it just means that you have to consider if the change you're making is worth wrecking someone's game over. Presume you're going to wreck someone's game with a change you make. That is the baseline. That's the real negative effect of what you're doing. Don't deny it. Look it in the face. See what you're doing. Go from there.

It's not a stopping point, it's a starting point.
Would it really wreck someone's game, though? "Wrecking" is a lot like "hate". It gets used a lot in discussions, but is such an extreme reaction that very few people actually achieve it. Most of those who use the word hate, just dislike someone, perhaps a lot. They don't rise to the level of hate, though. If the Forgotten Realms ended tomorrow and I was mystically prevented from ever using it again, and I've used it for 95% of my campaigns since 1e, I would be disappointed and move on. I'd pick from one of the other settings or create my own, but my game wouldn't be "wrecked". I suspect that would be the case for most people who have canon changes they don't like come along.

I agree with you that additions are better than changes, but I don't think changes wreck games for very many people.
 

It's not an impossible bar to meet - it just means that you have to consider if the change you're making is worth wrecking someone's game over. Presume you're going to wreck someone's game with a change you make. That is the baseline. That's the real negative effect of what you're doing. Don't deny it. Look it in the face. See what you're doing. Go from there.

It's not a stopping point, it's a starting point.

Then the only winning move is not to change anything.

"Zeb" Cook considered the removal of assassins, monks, and half-orcs from the PHB to be worth wrecking someone's game over.
Tweet, Cook, and Williams considered allowing spontaneous casting via magical bloodlines to be something worth wrecking someone's game over.
Collins and Heisoo considered a unified tiefling appearance and backstory to be worth wrecking someone's game over.
Mearls and Crawford considered demonic backstory for gnolls to be worth wrecking someone's game over.
The Hickmans considered reinforcing Strahd's villainy earlier to be worth wrecking someone's game over.

None of those changes were made to screw over players or DMs. However, each one of these changes effectively meant someone's game got ruined. What is the threshold for damage between a "good" change and a bad? When is it "too far?" Who decides it? What criteria do they use? Whose needs get prioritized?

There is no standard that you can apply here universally, and that alone makes the task impossible. Unless you change nothing. At which point, we'd be playing the 500th reprinting the OD&D little-brown books.
 

The Hickmans considered reinforcing Strahd's villainy earlier to be worth wrecking someone's game over.

Surely in this case it was Stephenie Meyer that wrecked Ravenloft rather then the other way around?

None of those changes were made to screw over players or DMs. However, each one of these changes effectively meant someone's game got ruined. What is the threshold for damage between a "good" change and a bad? When is it "too far?" Who decides it? What criteria do they use? Whose needs get prioritized?

There is no standard that you can apply here universally, and that alone makes the task impossible. Unless you change nothing. At which point, we'd be playing the 500th reprinting the OD&D little-brown books.

I do not think that a lack of a "Universal" standard makes it impossible to build onto the DnD story. Certainly there are particular low points in 4e era that you can point to where changes were made to meet business criteria rather then story criteria.

Personally I would argue that having a setting frozen in time like Eberron is much worse then any of the Realm Shaking Events that FR has gone through.
 
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You're writing off the different existing psionics stories too easily. Having psionics originate from the far realm does change every setting's narrative of psionics and is likely to be the focus of play in a game with a psionic character. It is likely to link to that character's origins, motivations, and goals.
This is an empirical claim. It strikes me as implausible. I've played lots of D&D games with wizards who had spellbooks. The "scholarly" origins of wizardry had no impact that I recall on the characters' origins, motivations or goals - except in the purely instrumental sense of hoping to find scrolls with spells that they could write into their spellbooks.

If psionic characters had human sacrifice as their recharge requirement, that would be a different thing - and much closer to your example about warforged (a more extreme version of it, obviously). That psionics entered the world when the Far Realm did, though? Easily ignorable. If you ignore those words literally nothing else about your game has to change. Whereas if you ignore the recharge requirement, you have to come up with a new one (and worry if it is balanced, etc); and if you ignore the lore about House such-and-such, which is an active part of the gameworld, you have to write in new lore to explain how they spend their days and make their money.

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Presume you're going to wreck someone's game with a change you make. That is the baseline.
Then the only winning move is not to change anything.

<snip list of changes over the years>

None of those changes were made to screw over players or DMs. However, each one of these changes effectively meant someone's game got ruined.
In the recent exchange I'm generally sympathetic to Remathilis, but here I can't easily agree with either of these posts.

Why should WotC, as a designer/publisher, presume they are going to wreck someone's game with a change they make? Buying their products is purely voluntary. Using a purchased book in a game, whether in part or in whole, is purely voluntary. So if someone is going to buy WotC's stuff and then use it to wreck his/her game, that looks like the other person's problem, not WotC's!

Now obviously, given WotC is a commercial publisher, they want people to buy their stuff. But the threshold for that shouldn't be that it doesn't wreck a customer's game - it should be that the customer likes it for what it will add to their game!

Only if people are somehow compelled to use WotC's stuff can it wreck their game. And that compulsion would have to come from within them, because WotC can't force them to use. Which brings us back to the idea of "brand" - that is the source of the compulsion! But hasn't something gone wrong with RPGing, when a medium that began with the premise that players would come up with their own fiction and stories has turned into one in which the premise has become that players will identify with a commercial publishers fiction and stories, and will do so to such an extent that they get angry when the publisher publishes something else that is not the same as, or canonically consistent with, the earlier published works?

You've still got a ways to go to understand the root cause if you stop there. Why did they regard it as "an aesthetic affront"? What did it ask them to do that they were hostile to doing?
If we are going to use the metaphor of "asking", then it did what any new RPG book does - it invited those who encountered it to buy it and use it in their games.

But that is not why it was regarded as an affront. No one gets offended by the publication of a book of stuff they don't like under a brand they don't care about. It was regarded as an affront because, for some people, it outraged their "sense", their "conception", of what a [high elf/ giant/ tiefling/ angel/ archon/ eladrin/etc] is. People were affronted that the story elements that were being sold under the D&D brand did not match their preferred conception of those story elements.

That's why I describe the issue as one to do with brand management and marketing.

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A lore specialist might be a valuable hire. A collection of the text of all D&D books evar might give you something to search and find obscure references with.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I assume that WotC has fewer resources for this sort of thing than Marvel Comics, which I take (again, perhaps erroneously) to be a bigger commercial operation.

Marvel couldn't do it. That's why they invented the no prize - to nod the head to fans who picked up on and then ret-conned away continuity errors.

And that's even assuming this sort of ultra-conservatism is the right approach to selling books. Why do I need to buy new books if all they tell me is everything I already have? And, if I've hitherto not been interested in the default fiction of D&D, why would I be interested in it this time around?

If in some meeting someone's afraid to speak up about the problems with Chris Perkins's Brilliant New Idea, or if their perspectives are just dismissed by a management or marketing team eager to make changes, they might as well not be there
Do you have any evidence that this is how WotC works? Have you actually read Worlds & Monsters - it's a hymn of affection to D&D lore, not (as I have seen some assert) the product of those who don't know it or don't care about it.

it asked them to change their default assumptions about the lore of their games too dramatically

<snip>

It asked them to abandon stories that they wanted to tell in favor of these new stories that the designers wanted to tell.
Every single publication of a new RPG book does this. Burning Wheel invites you to play a sword-and-sorcery tone game with Tolkienesque elves, dwarves and orcs. Tunnels and Trolls asks you to play a dungeoneering FRPG in a tone about 100 times more light-hearted than anything I can think of published for D&D.

So this is not a sufficient explanation for outrage. You don't get to that until you start talking about "brand" (or some other concept in the neighbourhood that deals with a sense of consumer identity and even ownership based around purchase and use of a particular producer's product).

every time that person signs up to a new D&D game, they still need to figure out which version of "playing D&D" the group is using.
This is not a meaningful cost. It is already ubiquitous among D&D players: which edition? which supplements? which house rules? hack-and-slash, or "story driven"? etc etc.

4e did not change anything significant in this respect. I have not seen a single report that I recall of anyone suffering, in terms of time or emotional energy, because of a lack of clarity over which version of the game was being played.

Although there is a widespread view that 3E didn't change the play experience from AD&D, you only have to look at threads where the impact of (say) wand of CLW crafting, or changes to fighter saving throws, are discussed to see that this was not the case for many D&D players.

I will also make a more bold conjecture: one sort of way of playing D&D - namely, the highly GM-curated "story driven" game in which the role of mechanics is secondary - was probably fairly easily migrated from 2nd ed AD&D to 3E. Whereas 4e is overtly hostile to that sort of approach (this is one way in which the indie influence on its design is evident). I think one thing we learn from the strength of reaction to 4e is how central that sort of playstyle is to the D&D fan-base.

Again, if you ask someone who "hated" 4e lore if they would hate it quite as much if the game explicitly said that this was some "Nentir Vale Adventures" campaign setting, you will often get a much, much different response to the lore.

The rejection of 4e lore by some folks is, in part, an attempt to avoid confusion over what "playing D&D" means to them. "Playing D&D" didn't mean teleporting extraplanar PC's before, and, to them, it still doesn't, and it never will.
The word "confusion" is misused here - or, at best, is a metaphor.

No one is literally puzzled. No one literally fails to understand what is going on. Rather, some people who identify as D&D players do not want to identify with this. They see it as an affront. I have seen the word "insult" used.

The response is the same, in its basic nature, as those who object to changes in other sorts of serial fiction (soap operas, movie series, comics, etc). No one who (say) objects to Wolverine's claws being stripped of adamantium to become bone, or who thinks that the clone saga turns Spider Man into a travesty, is expressing epistemic difficulties. They are not confused by anything. Rather, they don't like it.

At which point at least two responses are available. One is to ignore it, on the general principle that one should not spend leisure time or money on stuff one doesn't care for. The other is to reaffirm one's identification with the fiction at issue (D&D, Marvel Comics, whatever) and to condemn the stuff one doesn't like as a travesty/betrayal/insult. Someone who takes the second path is someone I would say cares about canon in a very different way from how I do.
 

You say it's easily ignored, but I've seen plenty of posters here who disagree.
So have I. But I don't think there reasons are very good ones.

I mean, if you bought the book with that introductory page or two torn out, you wouldn't even notice. Nothing else would have to change about the use of psionics in the game. How much easier to ignore can you get?

(And I say this not by way of conjecture, but on the basis of experience. I am GMing a 4e Dark Sun game where one PC is a monk and another a battlemind - both psionic classes. I'm guessing that neither player has read those introductory pages of the PHB3. The failure to read them has no bearing on the play of either character.)

I mean, suppose that someone published something telling us that all the words of magicians' spell books are written in Cyrillic script. OK - so what? Would anything have to change about how we play our magician PCs? I can't see how it would. Adding in this sort of stuff makes no difference to anything else.

(Contrast, say, increasing a flind's hit dice, or getting rid of the flind-bar - this is a more significant change, as it means that the actual play experience of a flind will be different, unless the GM drops the flind back to its historically more typical HD, and adds in stats for the flind-bar.)
 

I'll reply to this in a separate post, because of its derailing potential:

When someone says that warlords are screaming your arm back on, what are they actually opposing?
Here's a list of possibilities:

1) The difference between the Cure Light Wound spell and the Regeneration spell;

2) The difference between doing d6 damage with a staff, and hitting someone with a Staff of Withering;

3) The Gygaxian model of hit point loss;

4) The fact that some other D&D player does not agree with denials (1) through (3);

5) The fact that WotC does not agree with denials (1) through (3).
 


Thing is, you're telling me I can't have round steak because you don't like it and round steak isn't really steak because it's different from what you like.

NO, we're telling you (well, really, WOTC) not to take the chuck or porterhouse steak off of OUR plates and replace it with round steak, even though we're been eating the former for 40+ years, just because YOU personally think round steak is better and DAMMIT! We all need to get with the program, because chuck and porterhouse are SO last year! The WHOLE table has to eat round steak, it can't just be YOU eating round steak on a separate plate, even if your plate is just as big as ours. This is what 4e did, insist all players eat round steak. Whether round stake is "better" or "worse" than the other kind is irrelevant... what matters is our choice was taken away and replaced with another. 4e COULD have chosen to put the changes (new cosmology, elemental giants, new Eladrin and Tieflings, etc.) in a new "Netir Vale" campaign setting, thus allowing those who liked the new material to have it while leaving other campaigns untouched... but no, the changes were so "cool" that they had to be in the core material, where nobody could ignore it. You said that we could just change the monsters back. Well, let's turn that around... why should I have to have changed the 4e monsters? Why shouldn't it be YOU turning regular giants into elemental giants, regular Archons into elemental Archons, etc? Why should the burden be on the people who liked the original material?!?
 
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Again, you're arguing a different position than what I'm arguing against. I totally agree with you. And that's perfectly acceptable to not play in a game. But, you're arguing what you want to play. Not what is "authentic" to the setting. Granted, minotaur is about as Dragonlance as you can get since DL is the source of minotaur as a PC race. Fair enough. And, heck, gnome is certainly there as well. But, DL gnomes are pretty setting specific.

Put it this way - if I play a Kender that never steals and believes in personal ownership, am I being "authentic" to the setting? I'd say not. That's not what makes a DL halfling a DL halfling. Remember, the issue here is "Is this character immediately identifiable as belonging to this setting", not "Can we make space for this character.". And, funnily enough, the second question, which is what I think you're asking, is basically saying that canon is not all that terribly important.
That is definately a DL character. "He's a kender that doesn't pick stuff up and put it in his pockets, and locks his doors and windows, and is a bit of an outsider amongst his kin because of it" can only be a DL character. That is definitively a DL character. The characters internal conflicts are 100% informed and determined by being a DL kender
likewise a runty Minotaur girl who dreams of being a Knight, like the great Huma. Or two gnome siblings a friend and I played, one was a ranger who believed her people were on a bad course, but can still rapid fire talk your ear off about he complex lives of badgers and jackdaws, and her brother who hacked magic, becoming a warlock, and who wants to incorporate his understanding of magic with his sisters natural knowledge and their people's genius for invention.

These are not generic DnD characters. They can't be Eberron or FR or DS or Mystara or Greyhawk characters. They are DL characters, their only home can be Krynn.
 

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