D&D 5E Do you change balance for shorter fights?

[Jfdlsjfd]

I've seen threads around about the average combat length, with greatly varying answers from one DM to another. I found myself at the lower end of the poll: anything lasting more than 3 rounds and it starts to be a drag (mostly because some of my players take a lot of time to determine their course of action....). So I tend to imagine cinematic fights, where "something" interesting happens each round, out of fear that I run out of idea to describe the fight with something other than "orc #3 strikes with an axe for the 7th time..." BUT... I am somewhat disappointed with the challenge offered by supposedly high CR magic users... who cares how many spells they have if they only get to cast 3 or 4 before going down? The breadth of ability feels a waste over the ability to do a powerful opening strike.

Does anyone feels like me and do you have solutions (the only thing coming to mind is surrounding the big bad with hordes of CR 1/8 mooks just there to soak attacks... but it can't be appropriate all the time).

 

[DND_Reborn]

Interesting and thanks for sharing!

Our group tends to the other side of things--battles typically take 6-8 rounds and sometimes over 10. For the game I am going to run I am actually decreasing the HP bloat, cutting most HP totals roughly in half.

As for casters, range is your friends as are powerful concentration spells combined with powerful strikes.

But for more clarity, what levels are we discussing? Is the high CR wizard a 7th-level caster, 11th, or 17th, etc?

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

I am starting to think the CR system was designed with your "longer fights" in mind, as I think the numbers given makes more sense.

Levelwise, the problem I feel starts to arise quickly: an archmage is an 18th level spellcaster with CR 12 and 100 HP. Using the DMG rules (and KFC for calculations), it's a medium challenge for a party of 6 PCs at level 5. If they get in range quickly, he's most likely to die in a few rounds, not allowing him to deal significant damage (especially with a spell selection lacking in offence at highest level). If, however, they start at range invisibility at will can turn it into a running battle most likely to TPK them. But that's anecdotal.

I am starting to see the problem happening starting with 7th level caster. By the rules, a conjurer NPC is CR 6 and a 9th level caster. It can theoretically cast 3 fireballs, 2 black tentacles and conjure 2 elementals. In practice, with its 40 HP, it's likely to go down very quick, especially since the PCs tend to focus on the weakest link. I also find this problem with creatures having many interesting abilities and few occasion to show them off.

 

[Coroc]

I am starting to think the CR system was designed with your "longer fights" in mind, as I think the numbers given makes more sense.

Levelwise, the problem I feel starts to arise quickly: an archmage is an 18th level spellcaster with CR 12 and 100 HP. Using the DMG rules (and KFC for calculations), it's a medium challenge for a party of 6 PCs at level 5. If they get in range quickly, he's most likely to die in a few rounds, not allowing him to deal significant damage (especially with a spell selection lacking in offence at highest level). If, however, they start at range invisibility at will can turn it into a running battle most likely to TPK them. But that's anecdotal.

I am starting to see the problem happening starting with 7th level caster. By the rules, a conjurer NPC is CR 6 and a 9th level caster. It can theoretically cast 3 fireballs, 2 black tentacles and conjure 2 elementals. In practice, with its 40 HP, it's likely to go down very quick, especially since the PCs tend to focus on the weakest link. I also find this problem with creatures having many interesting abilities and few occasion to show them off.

Take two

Nah seriously, single mob design, and that is what you are asking for with your straight by the MM archmage and conjurer is another thing in 5e.

Both of these mobs are not designed to stand against a 4 let alone 6 ppl party with appropriate level for the CR.

For bossmobs you need one or more of these : canonfodder, lair, legendary resistance, legendary action,
resistances, immunities, bolstered HP, bolstered AC and/or a very intelligent playstyle e.g. attacking first with every tactical advantage e.g. precast buffs, difficult to reach postion (range, high up, flying)
Also tactical withdraw, healing/regeration, fleeing if things get rough, ability to teleport at will.

Your standard PHB mobs do not have any of this, so they are not designed to hold on their own against a group. Take your Conjurer. Ok level 4 party or so gets him down in 2 rounds by focusfire on him.
Now put out a second, things get nasty because basically now it is 2 fireballs/rd. Take 3 and it is 3 area effect spells a round. This should cause problems even for your 6 ppl party.

 

[NotAYakk]

Monster XP is proportional to HP*DPR, and DPR is based off first 3 round burst. (that is adjusted by ATK/Save DC/AC/etc) (if you plot HP*DPR*(1+.1*(AC+ATK-13)) on DMG table you get something close to proportional to XP; I forget the exact ratio).

High offence, low defence monsters are intended to drop quickly in this math. Most spellcasters are included. Their deep spell lists are an artifact of 5e's simulation-first philosophy, they are not balanced assuming they can unload it all.

Remember that "deadly" means a chance a PC drops, not "players will likely lose". And that tactical advantages can really swing things.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I am starting to think the CR system was designed with your "longer fights" in mind, as I think the numbers given makes more sense.

Levelwise, the problem I feel starts to arise quickly: an archmage is an 18th level spellcaster with CR 12 and 100 HP. Using the DMG rules (and KFC for calculations), it's a medium challenge for a party of 6 PCs at level 5. If they get in range quickly, he's most likely to die in a few rounds, not allowing him to deal significant damage (especially with a spell selection lacking in offence at highest level). If, however, they start at range invisibility at will can turn it into a running battle most likely to TPK them. But that's anecdotal.

I am starting to see the problem happening starting with 7th level caster. By the rules, a conjurer NPC is CR 6 and a 9th level caster. It can theoretically cast 3 fireballs, 2 black tentacles and conjure 2 elementals. In practice, with its 40 HP, it's likely to go down very quick, especially since the PCs tend to focus on the weakest link. I also find this problem with creatures having many interesting abilities and few occasion to show them off.

Properly played, an archmage will destroy a party of 5th level PCs.

I know, because that is exactly what happened to our party and why one of our characters had to be reincarnated instead of raised (the body was certainly not in condition for raising). He also killed every other character but our rogue who managed to hide from him and evade discovery. He left, but not before telling the rogue he has 24 hours to leave and take the townspeople with him otherwise he would kill everyone. A spirit naga, which we rescued from the black dragon we killed, raised one of our comrades that day. We all left (including the naga, which later raised the others the archmage had killed) and our goal is to someday return and free the region from his control.

But like you say, its anecdotal. Depending on the set-up and rolls, a CR 12 monster against a 6-member party of 5th level PC should be a moderate encounter under most conditions. The situation and rolls will determine a lot.

Anyway, with casters they either have to be prepped for combat or have soldiers to protect them in some fashion. They realize they are physically weaker and should avoid direct confrontation. Our DM makes the casters we face more than enough of a challenge.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yeah.
As a 9th level wizard, try going alone against 6 CR 2 brutes.
Keep in mind that it is not balanced for 1 vs 6 in general on both sides, and acfually that is impossible.

On the contrary I had 6 level 6 PCs frightened as hell in a level 1 side quest.
A few zombies, some crawling hands and a level 4 wizard with a staff of magic missiles put up a great fight.

 

[jgsugden]

Tell a good story. A lot of the problems I hear about on Enworld with games seem to be influenced by people looking at encounters rather than stories.

Your archmage foe will only cast a few spells in combat? What did he do with them before combat? Or, do you reselect the spells so that they complement each other.

When I put an archmage into my world, I make sure they have spells that make sense for their story. For example, there is an archmage that lives at sea and has a suite of spells designed for long range sea combats, for protection of an entire ship, etc...

 

[NotAYakk]

Note that the CR assumes the two combatants run into each other, neither one knowing the other is there, and neither surprised.

If you add in a tactical advantage for either side, the difficulty tilts. That is why a party of level 9s can wipe the floor with an ancient red dragon given tactical advantages like "get a cast of hero's feast before" and "everyone drinks fire resist potions" and "fight the dragon indoors".

The encounter building guidelines even have guidelines for what to do about excessive preparation. For example, surprise is worth a full step in encounter difficulty. Having a bunch of pre-buff rounds is going to be worth something similar.

 

[S'mon]

Casters in 5e definitely need a horde of elite mooks between them and the PCs IME.

Partial exception for spellcasting dragon.