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D&D 5E Do you Consider Flavor Text to be part of Raw?

Do you consider flavour text, the material with no mechanical impact, to be part of RAW?


Hussar

Legend
Gruumsh might be a little specific but consider that orcs worship a god opposed to gnolls worshipping a demon lord and other races perhaps worshipping an archdevil. The names are irrelevant but the details influence the story of the races. No matter how cruel and savage orcs might be, they still have a sense of organized religion and faith in a higher being, opposed to gnolls who venerate a chaotic beast of supreme destruction.

But, I have zero problem with demon worshipping orcs. I remember when orcs were CE, so, supreme destruction orcs don't bother me in the least. Heck, gnolls that venerate some god works for me as well. Scarred Lands, for example, doesn't have Yeenoghu, AFAIK, and gnolls would venerate Vangal the destroyer, by and large. Then again, is Yeenoghu a demon or a god? Well, he's appeared in the Dieties and Demigods at one point, so, you can make the argument either way.

I guess that's the other reason why flavour text is so unimportant to me. It's been contradicted and rewritten so many times across editions, you can make a decent argument for anything. Heck, gnolls in Basic/Expert, where I started D&D, there were no demon lords. But, it did have gnolls and orcs. Does that mean that I wasn't playing the story of D&D when I was playing Moldvay Basic? Of course not. So, if I can play two different flavours of D&D which share virtually no flavour ties at all, why would I find it necessary to include a particular edition's flavour in my home brew game?
 

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Tzarevitch

First Post
Reading through This thread on how closely do people stick to RAW, the poll question caught me a bit by surprise. To me, I've never considered flavour elements to be part of RAW. After all, they have no mechanical impact, so, I don't really consider them to be rules. By the definition in that thread, I've never played D&D even close to RAW since I almost always homebrew campaigns and I've never once used a TSR or WOTC setting. Anything and everything is up for grabs and can be changed at will without any regard to "official" flavour in my games.

So, I'm wondering if I'm the odd man out here. Do people consider flavour text, the stuff with no mechanical impact, to be part of RAW?

I voted for lemon curry because there is no actual differentiation between rule and flavor text in 5e. Technically it is all rule and it's up to the DM to decide what he follows and what he doesn't.
 

Tzarevitch

First Post
Heh. At my table, I'll add one above all those things:

Assumptions or mistakes the players make that are better than anything I have prepared

Agreed, this is my favorite. In the last 2 sessions of my Blackmoor campaign (still in 4e) they players have been trying to puzzle out what the Egg of Coot has been up to. Funny thing is their theories were actually a lot better than the Egg's actual plan. I ran two entire game sessions based entirely on what they thought the Egg was actually doing rather than the plan I thought up for it. lol
 

But, I have zero problem with demon worshipping orcs. I remember when orcs were CE, so, supreme destruction orcs don't bother me in the least. Heck, gnolls that venerate some god works for me as well. Scarred Lands, for example, doesn't have Yeenoghu, AFAIK, and gnolls would venerate Vangal the destroyer, by and large. Then again, is Yeenoghu a demon or a god? Well, he's appeared in the Dieties and Demigods at one point, so, you can make the argument either way.

I guess that's the other reason why flavour text is so unimportant to me. It's been contradicted and rewritten so many times across editions, you can make a decent argument for anything. Heck, gnolls in Basic/Expert, where I started D&D, there were no demon lords. But, it did have gnolls and orcs. Does that mean that I wasn't playing the story of D&D when I was playing Moldvay Basic? Of course not. So, if I can play two different flavours of D&D which share virtually no flavour ties at all, why would I find it necessary to include a particular edition's flavour in my home brew game?
You know the game. You know the monsters and the tropes. So any changes you make are informed changes, based on the presentation of the monster as it's been (or as you've perceived it) over the years: you know both orcs and gnolls are the same alignment and thus feel comfortable swapping their religious inclinations. That's your choice.
But having the flavour allows you to make that choice. You could also choose that the flavour is just fine as it is. Perhaps gnolls just don't interest you, so you don't see the need to make any changes. The presence of the flavour makes things easier. Not having the flavour would make those races much more generic, much harder to tell apart. The flavour differentiates them as the low CR humanoid monsters.


But monsters are a complex example.
An easier one is something like, oh, fireball. The description in Basic says:
A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame. Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
The fire spreads around corners. It ignites flammable objects in the area that aren’t being worn or carried.

What's flavour and what's mechanics in that? One would argue that the only mechanics are: Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. That'd be the part singled out for a Hit/Miss line in 4e, while the rest would like be in italics below the name.
But the rest of the flavour could still have a mechanical or game effect. The wizard points a finger and releases a streak of light that explodes. As I said earlier, what if someone tries to intercept? It also implies you need to be able to see the center of the explosion to aim. It also emphasises that you aim at a point, not an item. So you can detonate in mid-air.
There's also the description of the "low roar" that might call for Wisdom checks to hear the blast.
And, of course, the fire ignites things like flammable objects. If just going be "the rules" then it only affects creatures, as they're the ones called out to make saving throws. This came up a few times in 4e, when powers specified "creature" or "enemy" in the attack line, meaning they couldn't be used to, say, ignite a library or blast down a wooden door. Not according to RAW.
 
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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
A good example is the phantasmal killer spell, the fluff says it taps into the nightmares of the creature, elves don't dream like most creatures they go through mental exercises while they trance, I doubt warforged will dream when we have rules for them. I would never ever for a second consider making either race immune to the spell phantasmal killer, because of that bit of fluff.

The mechanics are make a save or be frightened, so the only thing that makes you immune to this spell is being immune to the frightened condition.

See, I'd be tempted go the other way. I have no problem having a certain specific character be immune to a certain specific spell because *story*. Story trumps mechanics. If Warforged don't have dreams of magitech sheep, I'd be inclined to let them off the hook for that spell.

If the challenge for my adventure hinged on that one particular spell, I'd have bigger problems anyway, and a cool little moment where the enemy wastes an effect because the PC is special is more fun to play than the same thing, over and over again.

I see the function of RAW to be to support the flavor I'm looking for.

What I kind of enjoy about 5e so far is that you and I can both play it and have fun with the same system, despite coming at it from different angles.
 

77IM

Explorer!!!
Supporter
Since game mechanics are how we reach consensus about what happens in the game world, flavor text DOES have mechanical impact.
 

pemerton

Legend
If just going be "the rules" then it only affects creatures, as they're the ones called out to make saving throws.
In Moldvay Basic the fireball spell mentions damage only to creatures. Yet when we played we never had any trouble extrapolating to setting flammable material alight.

The rules - including key words like "fire" - establish shared fiction, that in turn suggests what else might be going on.

But I don't think [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] is asking about shared fiction. He seems to be asking about world flavour (eg who is the god of the orcs). I often use it, but I don't consider it RAW.
 


billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
I don't see a point to the bifurcation between mechanics and flavor. Mechanics without flavor are contextless and useless for the purpose of play. I consider both together as a whole.

On the other hand, in the other ongoing poll, I answered No to using D&D as written. I may consider it all Rules as Written, but I also change them.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I'm throwing the curry into the lemon juice on this one. Had there been a "sometimes" or "where it makes sense" option given, that would have got my vote.
[MENTION=37579]Jester Canuck[/MENTION] nicely explains why:
An easier one is something like, oh, fireball. The description in Basic says:


What's flavour and what's mechanics in that? One would argue that the only mechanics are: Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. That'd be the part singled out for a Hit/Miss line in 4e, while the rest would like be in italics below the name.
But the rest of the flavour could still have a mechanical or game effect. The wizard points a finger and releases a streak of light that explodes. As I said earlier, what if someone tries to intercept? It also implies you need to be able to see the center of the explosion to aim. It also emphasises that you aim at a point, not an item. So you can detonate in mid-air.
There's also the description of the "low roar" that might call for Wisdom checks to hear the blast.
And, of course, the fire ignites things like flammable objects. If just going be "the rules" then it only affects creatures, as they're the ones called out to make saving throws. This came up a few times in 4e, when powers specified "creature" or "enemy" in the attack line, meaning they couldn't be used to, say, ignore a library or blast down a wooden door. Not according to RAW.
Ignore a library? I suppose that would be pretty easy after it had been fireballed once or twice... ;)

Lan-"flavour text without flavour is the literary equivalent of eating sawdust"-efan
 

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