Do you have a problem with the distribution of DND skill pionts?

[broghammerj]

We're in the middle of a game by now and are having issues with the skill system. As always, I'm looking for help from my fellow EN-Worlders. We are 3rd level characters making our first travels underground and have encountered a number of problems reguarding skills. These are just a few examples of where the system breaks down.

1. Why is a dwarf, a person raised in the mountain/underground, unfamiliar with dungeoneering?

2. Why are our characters unfamiliar with the area they are raised in such as knowledge (local)?

3. Why do wizards/clerics who seem to be the educated or learned class get so few skill pionts to spend on knowledge.

These are problems arising from the skill point distribution/cross class system. Have any of you done anything in your own games to fix this? I'm not really looking for the response of play other games like GURP etc. I want to stay in the framework of the d20 system. We had considered forming four groups of skills and giving everyone the same number of pionts per level, but altering their distribution amongst these categories:

1. Physical skills- jump, climb, swim, etc.

2. Knowledge based/Interaction-Appraise, knowledge, gather information, etc.

3. Perception- Spot, listen, search, etc.

4. Class based skills- Nature would go to ranger and druid. Rogues- well you know the list. Wizard- spellcraft, concentration, etc.

I'm just throwing out ideas and wondering what people think or have done for their game?

 

[Ibram]

I dumped the whole class skill concept and gave everyone more skill points (enough to max out 4 more skills)

 

[Saeviomagy]

1. Why is a dwarf, a person raised in the mountain/underground, unfamiliar with dungeoneering?

Because he's always hung about in groups of people who've done it for him? Because the character has dedicated his life to some other profession? Because the player didn't think about such things? Because his stonecunning covers it?

2. Why are our characters unfamiliar with the area they are raised in such as knowledge (local)?

Again - according to whomsoever created the character, the character took no interest in such things.

3. Why do wizards/clerics who seem to be the educated or learned class get so few skill pionts to spend on knowledge.

For clerics, that's easy - they spend all their time cloistered up reading religious texts. And if you gave them lots of skill points they truely would be king of everything in the game. For wizards - a prime stat of intelligence means they tend to have nearly the skill points of a rogue.

These are problems arising from the skill point distribution/cross class system. Have any of you done anything in your own games to fix this? I'm not really looking for the response of play other games like GURP etc. I want to stay in the framework of the d20 system. We had considered forming four groups of skills and giving everyone the same number of pionts per level, but altering their distribution amongst these categories:

Actually, of those problems you cited, two of them were problems with players and generation systems and the type of game you run. If you run a game where background and knowledge skills matter, people will take them. If you don't, they won't.

 

[broghammerj]

Actually, of those problems you cited, two of them were problems with players and generation systems and the type of game you run. If you run a game where background and knowledge skills matter, people will take them. If you don't, they won't.

We are a group of players who think that is important to have skills related to your character history and story. However, if the dwarven fighter spends his 2 skill pts/level on knowleged dungeonering, it takes an incredibly high cost on his skills normally reserved for more physical skills.

For clerics, that's easy - they spend all their time cloistered up reading religious texts. And if you gave them lots of skill points they truely would be king of everything in the game. For wizards - a prime stat of intelligence means they tend to have nearly the skill points of a rogue.

The wizard will indeed have more skill points based on intelligence. I don't think that effect is intended or at least shouldn't be considered as it doesn't apply to other classes. If you use that logic, the fighter is even more pitiful. The typical fighter will not take intelligence. He will likely spend points in skills such as jump, swim, climb, etc as those are the class skills. The fact that the typical fighter will wear heavier armor which worsens those perviously mentioned skills makes them pitiful.

 

[2WS-Steve]

We had considered forming four groups of skills and giving everyone the same number of pionts per level, but altering their distribution amongst these categories:

1. Physical skills- jump, climb, swim, etc.

2. Knowledge based/Interaction-Appraise, knowledge, gather information, etc.

3. Perception- Spot, listen, search, etc.

4. Class based skills- Nature would go to ranger and druid. Rogues- well you know the list. Wizard- spellcraft, concentration, etc.

I'm just throwing out ideas and wondering what people think or have done for their game?

I like the idea of trimming down the number of skills too. In addition to the advantages you mentioned it'd make it a lot easier to stat out an NPC and reduce the amount of scanning through the stat block I normally have to do.

 

[MerricB]

We are a group of players who think that is important to have skills related to your character history and story. However, if the dwarven fighter spends his 2 skill pts/level on knowleged dungeonering, it takes an incredibly high cost on his skills normally reserved for more physical skills.

Well, you're doing something illegal there unless the dwarf is multiclassed: the dwarf can only spend 1 skill point per level on a skill that isn't a class skill for any of their classes.

Honestly, there is no problem if the dwarf spends points on Knowledge (dungeoneering). Of course that dwarf isn't as skilled as a Wizard or Bard who has concentrated on such knowledge, but, in truth, the dwarf's knowledge about such matters should be mainly set by 1st level (cultural factors) and subsumed in racial modifiers.

A Knowledge skill represents a deep study of the area, more than normal for such a character.

Cheers!

 

[broghammerj]

Well, you're doing something illegal there unless the dwarf is multiclassed: the dwarf can only spend 1 skill point per level on a skill that isn't a class skill for any of their classes.

I should qualify my statement. The cost is 2 to gain 1 skill point in knowledge dungeoneering for the fighter.

A Knowledge skill represents a deep study of the area, more than normal for such a character.

Yes, but the normal character can never answer an in game question related to knowledge since it can't be used untrained.

 

[DM_Matt]

I dumped the whole class skill concept and gave everyone more skill points (enough to max out 4 more skills)

Same here, although if you are going to do that and you don't use a whole lot of traps, don't expect to see any rogues in your party. Letting anyone be good at any skil, however,l really adds flavor and helps in breaking down class stereotypes

 

[Humanophile]

Yes, but the normal character can never answer an in game question related to knowledge since it can't be used untrained.

...Unless it involves "common knowledge" (anything with a DC 10 or less).

The 3.5 PHB already mentioned this. You can assume that your character is able to perform rote actions, even doing them well. You don't need ranks in profession (cook) just to have a knack roasting game on a spit. Ranks you have skills in are the ones where you have a glimmer of true heroic potential in, if not full heroic skill.

So your characters know common knowledge about their hometowns, and dwarves know common knowledge about dungeoncraft. Now, if your player wants his character to be an expert, spend those skill points. If not, it should be a nonissue. (But if your player does spend the points, be sure to reward him for it. Otherwise, all you're doing is telling him he wasted his points.)

 

[Hawken]

1. Why is a dwarf, a person raised in the mountain/underground, unfamiliar with dungeoneering?

Because you forgot to make a House Rule about applying their Stonecunning bonus to Knowledge (Dungeoneering) and letting them make checks with that skill even if untrained.

2. Why are our characters unfamiliar with the area they are raised in such as knowledge (local)?

Again, a simple House Rule will fix this. Give the PCs 4 ranks in Knowledge (Local) for their 'home' region. Then each additional level give them another point in the skill for that location, or a new location that they've spent a significant amount of time in. There are too many other skills that get more use than this and not enough skill points distributed to justify anyone but a Bard or Rogue spending points on this skill. This way, the player's get to put their points on skills that they will be using more often and it provides a good outlet for you to give them local info on even a low check.

3. Why do wizards/clerics who seem to be the educated or learned class get so few skill pionts to spend on knowledge.

There is no justification for this that I can think of. And don't anyone say anything about game balance. That's the weakest excuse for a system that's poorly balanced (if not broken) since 3.5. An easy way to fix the knowledge deficiency is give them extra points per level (perhaps 4 at 1st, and then 1 per level after) that must be used exclusively for Knowledge skills.

Needless to say, in my game, character's get more skill points to put to their characters. Aside from some class related freebies (like extra Knowledge skills for wizards), several skills are class skills for all classes (Climb, Jump, Listen, Spot, to name a few) and cross class skills only cost 1 point per rank, but the PCs are still limited to the amount of ranks for their level.

A good fix for lack of skill points is to increase the base number of skill points in classes. If the class normally gets 2 points per level, increase it to 4. If they get 4 points per level, increase it to 6. Leave the 6 and 8 point classes alone.

For clerics, that's easy - they spend all their time cloistered up reading religious texts. And if you gave them lots of skill points they truely would be king of everything in the game. For wizards - a prime stat of intelligence means they tend to have nearly the skill points of a rogue.

And what's wrong with that? Wizards don't have nearly the amount of class skills that a rogue does. And damn if a wizard shouldn't be smarter and know more than a rogue!