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Do you have trouble "Laying down the law"?

aboyd

Explorer
While I understand and endorse everyone's suggestions to just kick the guy out of the game, I myself have been in a position where I had a cheater in the game and due to circumstances it was going to be very difficult to drop the player. Specifically, he was friends of everyone else gaming, and was a guy down on his luck, so lots of sympathy for him. Since the players viewed the game more as a day of camaraderie, if I dropped him, I would likely lose all the other players. They would have found "he fudged dice rolls" to be a very lame reason to drop a player.

So what did I do? I blatantly asked to see his character sheet whenever he would attempt to do something I felt was beyond his capabilities. I'd say, "Wait, really? May I see your skills?" He'd show me, and sometimes he'd be right, although often he had severely inflated his scores. At times I could see him fudging rolls -- I'd see a d20 roll land with a single-digit number showing, and he'd touch the die as if he needed to bring it closer to see the number or something, but then he'd gently turn the die to a double-digit number. I ruled such rolls colossal failures, as if he'd failed by more than 5. So diplomacy rolls would end up worsening the situation, etc. I never told him I did this -- I never said, "I saw that you rolled low but reported a high number, therefore I'm giving you the worst result possible."

That may be passive-aggressive. However, here's the thing: it worked. It was great. We gamed for years, and while he cleaned up a little (he stopped cheating on the character sheet because I'd check the numbers), he never stopped fudging rolls. In order to keep friends and keep my own sanity, I always quietly sabotaged his cheating. The game wrapped up, and everyone went home happy, me included.

(I do have to admit that at one point he cheated a TON and I had a dramatic response to it -- for a short while I ignored everything he rolled. I got weary of always looking over at him as he rolled; I got weary of straining to see the original number before he changed it. So when he did it 5 or 6 times in a single game session, I eventually just stopped trying to look, assumed everything was a cheat, and just had the game proceed in the direction that seemed most fair or awesome.)
 

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Aboyd: Yeah, that? Not healthy, in my opinion.

Consider, why does someone cheat? Because they want to win. He lies about what he rolls, because he wants to succeed. You then ignore what he rolls, because you want him to be punished. But both of you are lying to the other, which is just a bad way to treat a friend.

Being passive aggressive is lame. It is a coward's way of dealing with a problem, especially a problem with such low stakes. You're not rebelling against an oppressive dictator here. You're trying to help out a friend who apparently needs the assurance of imaginary success so much that he'll lie to his friends to get it. You don't need to punish your friend; you need to be honest with him, and encourage him to be honest with you, and to do it directly. Politely, but directly.

I'm a little disheartened by the number of people in this thread who responded by saying that a GM should just ditch a player for cheating. Again I say, think of why your friend is cheating. Try helping him before you abandon him.
 

aboyd

Explorer
/me sighs.

You've found an excellent, roundabout way to call someone a coward on a forum where personal insults are not allowed. I commend you for that impressive feat. You've set a good example for others.

In any case, he wasn't my friend; he was friends with everyone else in attendance. I didn't care about his well being any more than people here care about the well being of some random poster. I tolerated his presence to keep an otherwise good group together. I certainly didn't want to invest time in reforming him like a pet project, and I certainly didn't care enough to have a good group fall apart just so that I could claim to have direct "non-cowardly" dealings with him.

And again, it worked wonderfully. The guy left the game happy, I kept all my friends who would have otherwise freaked out if I confronted him, and I left the game happy too. I can't argue with the result. So sure, let's call it the coward's way. Let's also note that in this case, cowards apparently have a super-effective system for successfully dealing with this issue.
 

Cheating in a RPG is ok... but only by the DM and never against players... (adding arbitrary penalties is not cheating) ;)

Playing with someone who cheats his rolls so that he makes other characters seem redundant is frustrating... if he balances his bad luck by cheating is more understandable...

and you still should just remind him politely to stop it...
 
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DrunkonDuty

he/him
Well I try to be diplomatic about it. Try being the thing here. Turns out, I'm not very diplomatic.

My main experience of 'cheating' is a friend of mine who I've been gaming with for 20 years. He doesn't fudge rolls but he's a shocker for getting the numbers on the character sheet added up wrong. He's been doing this for 20 years. Our group even has a name for it: Frog Accounting. I like to look over his character sheets before he brings in a new character. In fact I've been itching to have a look at his current character sheet for a while now because I'm quite certain he has over spent his skill points. A lot.

He is also a shocking rules rapist. (Yes that is a very strong metaphor. He has earned it.) It's long been at the point where when he asks if I'll allow or bend such and such a rule or allow this splat book, etc. I just say 'No.' It's my first reaction. A few months ago he asked me why I always say 'no' to everything. I told him, 'Pavlovian Conditioning.' He looked hurt, the rest of us laughed. We're just mean I guess. :lol:

He has been confronted on these things by pretty much everyone he's played with for any significant amount of time. He always apologises and corrects his mistakes. He explains 'I must have levelled up twice' or something similar. Mistakes anyone could make now and then; more so when you let your enthusiasm get the better of you. Old Froggy has a great deal of enthusiasm for gaming.

But what can ya do, hey? He is one of my best mates. He's good to game with. So when his latest miscalculation comes up we laugh at him, he gets sheepish and fixes it. I guess we 'lay down the law' by not taking it too seriously.
 

kitsune9

Adventurer
I was just reviewing some characters (Via the character builder) and noticed that one of my players "Fudged" his stats and a couple magic items when he updated his character at some point.

I promptly sent out a mass email to my regulars stating that actions such as this will no longer be tolerated (But I did not point out a guilty party). I also added the potential punishment that anyone continuing this activity will no longer be welcome in my games.

I figured that a warning like this would be fair.

Has anyone else had to "lay down the law" in a similar fashion for any game system?

Have you had trouble confronting your players (and posably friends) about their "cheating"?

I did play with a 2e group of players in which all of them with the exception to one player cheated considerably. The only player who did not cheat was a total newbie to rpgs to begin with. I had enough with the group and just stopped coming over to run the games as I felt it wasn't even worth my time to even issue any complaints or even deal with the matter.

My other players in my current campaign, when I have reviewed their character sheets, I only have caught some accounting mistakes, but nothing that would stand out for cheating. My players are fairly mature and serious in their gaming and their personalities don't consist of being labeled as cheaters.
 




kitsune9

Adventurer
While I understand and endorse everyone's suggestions to just kick the guy out of the game, I myself have been in a position where I had a cheater in the game and due to circumstances it was going to be very difficult to drop the player. Specifically, he was friends of everyone else gaming, and was a guy down on his luck, so lots of sympathy for him. Since the players viewed the game more as a day of camaraderie, if I dropped him, I would likely lose all the other players. They would have found "he fudged dice rolls" to be a very lame reason to drop a player.

So what did I do? I blatantly asked to see his character sheet whenever he would attempt to do something I felt was beyond his capabilities. I'd say, "Wait, really? May I see your skills?" He'd show me, and sometimes he'd be right, although often he had severely inflated his scores. At times I could see him fudging rolls -- I'd see a d20 roll land with a single-digit number showing, and he'd touch the die as if he needed to bring it closer to see the number or something, but then he'd gently turn the die to a double-digit number. I ruled such rolls colossal failures, as if he'd failed by more than 5. So diplomacy rolls would end up worsening the situation, etc. I never told him I did this -- I never said, "I saw that you rolled low but reported a high number, therefore I'm giving you the worst result possible."

That may be passive-aggressive. However, here's the thing: it worked. It was great. We gamed for years, and while he cleaned up a little (he stopped cheating on the character sheet because I'd check the numbers), he never stopped fudging rolls. In order to keep friends and keep my own sanity, I always quietly sabotaged his cheating. The game wrapped up, and everyone went home happy, me included.

(I do have to admit that at one point he cheated a TON and I had a dramatic response to it -- for a short while I ignored everything he rolled. I got weary of always looking over at him as he rolled; I got weary of straining to see the original number before he changed it. So when he did it 5 or 6 times in a single game session, I eventually just stopped trying to look, assumed everything was a cheat, and just had the game proceed in the direction that seemed most fair or awesome.)


Good that it really worked out for you, but that would get my goat to no end and I don't think I could game with such a player, even if it meant that others would take a hike and make me the lone man out. I can see how it work out for you to your benefit though.
 

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