Do you kill PCs?

[Byrons_Ghost]

Generally, I try to permanently avoid killing off player characters because it messes with the ongoing plots that we have going. I can't have them slowly tracking down some criminal society that kidnapped their families if the PC roster is changing every other week. You see this sort of problem in Call of Cthulhu a lot:

"hmm, lost another PC! Well, that mime across the street looks like he'd be interested in saving the world. Let's give him the journals kept by the last eight PCs and see if he can't make some sense of them without loosing his mind!"

So my players pretty much know that I'm not going to kill them off. Anything else is fair game, however- dismemberment, disfigurement, loss of status/wealth/property/family/lovers, that sort of thing.

I'm just finishing up a high magic, high level game where raise spells and the like were easily available. We had three different PCs die at one time or another, but since a raise was a little bit away it just wasn't much of a problem. Some people don't like this, I know, but I look at it more along the lines as being "only mostly dead." Anyhow, a high level game eventually gets to the point were you just have to assume that the players and the villains either won't be able to destroy each other permanently at all, or will be able to do it so well that neither they nor much of the kingdom they're in will be even experiencing an afterlife, let alone returning from one. Of course, in some ways that makes things more interesting, as now they really have to get into plotting, maneuvering, etc.

Anyhow, I'm getting ready to switch to a low level game with severely less magic floating around. I expect it to be a little odd, at first, having characters that could die from two good sword hits (we're starting at third level. Last campaign with this same group ended with people between levels 18 and 20). I'll definately have to pull my punches some, but I'm still determined not to kill off PCs permanently.

However, the constant cyle of death and ressurrection won't work as well in this setting as it would in, say, Mythic Egypt. I've been considering the following possible solutions to keep raise spells around, but limit their uses:

1. Story option: the spells don't work on just anyone. Not only does the person have to want to come back, but the gods (or whomever is granting the spell) have to want it as well. This means that the person has to be important, have a destiny, be marked by fate, etc. So the PCs will of course count (PCs are always marked by fate ), but it will apply to very few NPCs. It makes the gods seem callous, sure, but then, why shouldn't they be? Why should they let every peasant who suffers a tragic cart accident come back to life? "Sorry, should've watched where you were going there, Bob. Better luck next time!"

Part of this is having the person raised come under some sort of karmic debt/geasa/whatever to the god that "approves" their return. This, of course, allows for more adventures/rping in the future.

2. Rule option: It's a lot harder to find clerics with raise and resurrection- they're actually special domain spells, and not on the standard clerical list. They'd either be part of an altered Heal domain (True Res is already in the Heal domain, the others are not, to my knowledge), or part of their own domain (along with other spells of course). Either way, it's hard to find someone with them, meaning that they just aren't going to be commonly available, even if it is a king or someone who died.

In this scenario, the whim of the resurrectionist applies just as much as the god. Considering how great this power would be, they would probably be some sort of underground cult or secret society, and therefore hard to find- and not likely to come forth and volunteer their services. Another option is that only the clerics of the God of Death (tm) have this power, and both He and his servants generally aren't inclined to release people from His realm without good reason.

Anyone have any thoughts on these, or other ideas? I may use a mix of these things, myself. I'm also curious as to how some of the recent religious-type books deal with this subject, such as Book of the Righteous or the Nat 20 Death supplement. Anyone noticed anything?

 

[tburdett]

I'm DM'ing a game, not writing a book. PC's die and, if they can afford it, are brought back to life. That's the way that the game works.

We have, on average, one death every other week. We've had two near TPK, and one TPK. The near TPK's were both caused by insufficient planning before a major battle. The TPK was caused by a Symbol of Discord. The rogue is much less impulsive now.

Fortunately, they were in the middle of a large city when this happened and their henchmen were able to get them to a Cleric who was willing to Raise their Cleric.

Notice, I said Raise, not True Res. The player agreed that, under the circumstances, is what the henchmen would do. The PC's didn't have any wealth (gems or coins) with them when they died and the lowly henchmen didn't feel that they had the authority to sell magic items.

If a PC can't afford it, then the rest of the party has to decide whether or not to foot the bill. That bill can be cash money up front, a quest, or whatever. The going rate for a True Res in my campaign is currently around 12000gp. That includes the gem.

Not all players want to have their character raised from the dead. It is standard practice in our game for the PC's to ask each other if they wish to be returned to life if they fall in battle.

Currently, we have 2 players out of 6 who routinely don't want their characters returned to life. These 2 are new players who enjoy playing a wide variety of characters and don't mind it when they die. One of them seems extremely happy with his current character and may change his mind about being brought back in the near future.

Another downside to dying is the fact that enemies like to pick over your corpse if all of your companions are busy or distracted during combat. Nothing scares a high level PC more than losing a choice magic item. Well, I take that back. Nothing scares a high level PC more than Mordenkainens Disjunction. Losing a few items is almost as bad.

After two years of weekly gaming sessions my players are just now hitting the 18th - 20th level range. All of them have developed a healthy fear of death. It hides behind every door, every bush, in every tree and shadow. Death knows where they live and where they sleep. Death has become their constant companion.

In closing I'd like to say that the availability of life restoring magic has not, in any way, lessened our enjoyment of the game.

 

[bloodymage]

Read my sig!

I love my sig! Don't know how many time I've gotten to post those three little words. Glorious!

 

[Celtavian]

Re

I don't play what could be termed "realistic fantasy". I am supposing that you mean low-magic fantasy.

I generally try not to kill PC's. If they die though, they die. I don't mind people using ressurection spells, especially if they are a cleric character.

I view ressurection spells as cleric calling back the dead through the use of divine power. The cleric entreats their Deity with a request to revive a dead person, and the deity calls the spirit back and recreates the body of character (if using True Ressurection) if the character is willing. The person who is being ressurected knows which deity is calling him back.

I view the relationship between the deity and character as symbiotic. The deity gains power through worship, and in return the deity must provide certain benefits for that worship such as the bestowing of divine power in the form of spells for clerics. Thus, it does not seem unreal to me that a deity would be able to bring back the dead on behalf of their followers.

On the other hand, I do require clerics to have good reason for calling back the dead. As a DM, I arbitrate ressurection spells according to the deity's philosophy. Most deities do not bring back the dead unless the characters are on some great world-threatening quest, a deity that loves wealth or adventuring, or their is some other reason. (Example might be a deity of family bringing back a dead father so they can continue to care for their family.)

The real key here is simply asking yourself a series of questions. Why should this person be brought back from the dead? Would the deity in question consider this a worthy reason to bring this person back from the dead?


Even more important from a metagame standpoint, how do characters dying either make or break your story? How does bringing them back from the dead make or break your story?

Judging from your post, I would say you definitely have decided that in your particular world ressurection type spells seem unreal and don't have much of a place. So you prefer to make sure the characters don't die in your world.

On the other hand, if you are simply stating that ressurection is cheesy, I believe that is false presumption. In some peoples worlds death might not be as permanent as in others. It is not cheesy, it is just a different world dynamic where divine power is more easily accessible.

From a roleplaying perspective, death can either be a blissful experience if you worship a good god who rewards their followers after death, or a hellish punishment for failure if worshipping an evil god. It is all up to the DM to tailor exactly how death works.

A DM should definitely determine how the dynamic of death works in their campaign in advance from both a metagamea and a roleplaying perspective. It helps when explaining to the characters the limitations on ressurection.

 

[clark411]

In games I've run and games I've played, death has been a real part of it. Sometimes I've felt like the DM was choosing who lived and who died (fudges) and other times I've felt like the DM was turning the randomness of his dice and ours into a fair scenario. I prefer the latter far more than the former- as the former can really strip players of the suspension of the belief that they really really really have a say in what happens, either through luck (or unluck) and choice. I'd rather a crit on the head be a crit on the head for all involved, rather than it being a crit on the head -2 damage here or there for the PC's who are getting low on life.

Beyond the removal of the illusion (and the idea that we're only alive because its DM wishes), I also dislike the creation of a safety bubble around me. If I go out in DnD land with a sword, and fight other people with swords, I expect two things: First- I expect to poke bad people with my sword, and Second- I expect bad people to poke me with their swords. If I can handle my pokes killing, I should be able to handle their pokes killing as well with the exact same efficiency. My only caveat to this idea extends to magic; I hate, hate, hate instant death / no save spells. While I respect losing to a better foe in a Mage Duel, or in a plain ruckus on a tavern floor (with many a beer spilt and dwarven tear), there's absolutely nothing more unsatisfying than hearing "Okay- you're dead. No, you don't have to roll. You're dead." (As a note- telling Thor that his hammer was a means of compensating for other things, well... there's an exception.)

Now that I've said all this, I should also note that situations where PC's face death should be somewhat few and far between (at least imo), at least in the long run. In the early levels, yes- death is practically always close- as players go through a teething stage- the weak, and ill fated will die as it should be (if the weak and ill fated opt for anything other than merchant-craft or farming). Later on, death should be less common not due to direct DM interference but rather due to the circumstances the PC's find themselves in on a regular basis. One thing that I can't understand is the idea that everytime characters level up, every hostile thing they encounter somehow manages to be no less than capable of draining their resources 20%. Upon reaching an APL of 10... the usual encounter they meet is.... 10.
Does this make sense? In the DMG maybe, but if we look at a campaign world population as a triangle (with the teeming masses of unexperienced fodder and the pinnacle being your typical deity or elite cadre of NPC adventurers / super villains) it makes sense that the higher level you get, the more things you should face that will cause you less and less difficulty. Does it just so happen that all the lower difficulty things are given 2 weeks notice to vacate the premises? To use an extreme, how often did Mr. Sorbo's Hercules reallly have a hard time womping his foes? Rarely. Yea, he'd break a sweat, and yes, he was worried for the little guys- but deep down, we never really feared for his rear save on one or two occasions. The same can, and in my opinion, should, hold true for PC's (even without being demigods). Rather than them feeling safe in the knowledge that they have a DM Bubble around them, let them feel safe knowing that, as they grow, there's less and less in the world for them to be overly concerned with (rather than "uhoh, we're level 5- that means the once-deadly Kobold horde is making way for the now-deadly hobgoblin empire... which in several levels will be replaced by the now-and-later deadly troll kingdom!").

As for Resurrections and Raise Dead, yes- they do pretty much swipe out the drama in later levels. Instead of "Alas, poor Jerome! His was a good soul!" we have "I've got to get this pinky to a high cleric, STAT!" followed by a romp across the countryside before a soul is gone for good. Heck, it happened to me two weeks ago- my character led to the annihilation of ~80 Dark Elves at the hands of a fiesty Tiamat, and in regret I confessed to Bahamut (Yea, I hang with a lofty crowd) and was summarily disintegrated by his Godzilla breath. Fast forward a few minutes, and everyone's rushing me across the countryside in a glass jar to a temple. Depending on your campaign setting (high / low fantasy), options can range from the blunt and obvious (every town in the land was given a lone obelisk that can save any life, once) to the political (each person aligns themselves with one church or directly with a deity, who s/he must then devote his / her life to lest s/he not be given chances to continue it).

In games I've run, I've had Raise dead be neigh impossible to find, and had one or two people on the continent capable of Resurrections. It led to deaths being permanent, but only once in the campaign did people die (a TPK mind you- never haggle for quarter with a bloody bladed-rogue while your party bleeds out beneath you.) In such a setting, I made the most powerful weapons capable of doing more to an opponent than simply normal damage. One evil item of immense power would tear out hearts- that instantly removes any chances of Raise dead- game over for 99% of the population that lacks access to Resurrection.

And that's that. Note to self- cut back on morning coffee.

 

[Shalewind]

Thank you all for the highly diverse and interesting opinions.

Fenes 2:

I know some need the threat of PC death to enjoy a game, but for me it was always the opposite: Worrying about my PC made a game a lot less fun for me, and drove me to minmax, even rule lawyering, and paranoid behaving PCs.

Interesting Point. Some of my players have expressed similar views, which is why I took the rode I took. Thanks for the insight.

Privateer:
Lol. Yep, that's my basic view of the theory. Fine if you are playing Final Fantasy but otherwise...

Emongnome:
Hero Points. Seen Em. Used Em. Implemented my own with mixed results. I now use a house deck of fate cards. I'd be curious to know how your Hero Point implementation turns out.

Vexed:
Thank you for the input. I don't really have a problem with this or my PCs griping. This was more of a future knowledge piece. I put together a new "long" campaign every two years and figured I'd need a little insight into the matter before I started changing the way I've done new things. I agree though, the religious system that is typically ascribed to the Core Rules does account for the use of the spells.

tburdett:

I'm DM'ing a game, not writing a book.

I can respect that. Each to their own.

Celtavian: Good insight. I've had thoughts on the Deity/PC relationship before and I do think that if the spells are present, one needs to pay attention to implications present with the High Ups.

clark411:

I hate, hate, hate instant death / no save spells.

I totally agree.
And I agree with your interpretation of the raise spells and find it interesting the way you handled them. Thanks for the input.

Continue as you will.

 

[Jasperak]

I let the dice fall where they may. I even roll out in the open. In my experience, players play better when the threat of death for their characters is real.

I must say though that almost all save or die spells and the like have been or will be errated to make up for not having any raise dead spells.

 

[Anubis]

I'm lucky in that my players never want to play a cleric. Thus, although I try to keep the party alive, I also make raising very difficult to come by. Most clerics are unwilling to do it just for money. If they are at willing, it usually takes a major quest or something of the sort. Most of the time, it is considered sin to just raise people just because they died a terrible death.

Once the party cleric has access, that will of course change a bit, but by Epic levels, it may be relatively common, but then again, by that time, characters are almost gods anyway. The death of an Epic character is rare indeed.

 

[Mark Chance]

DMs don't kill PCs; monsters do...

It's a variation of what I tell my students. "I don't give grades. I just do the math. You give yourself the grades."

Modify for my players: "I didn't kill your character. The ettin did. You should've stayed at bow range like everyone else."

 

[John Smallberries]

I currently play in a game where we *cannot* die because the DM is a Plotzi.

Since any change in the party makeup would disrupt our DM's precious (and rigid) plotline, he's handed us an item which is effectively a Rod of True Resurrection.

Yes, you read that correctly.

Oh, it's not unbalanced---since it can only be used "once a day", and won't work for anyone but the PCs (since we've got this big scripted Destiny).

Unfortunately the DM is a really good friend so none of us have the heart to simply refuse to be Resurrected. Or show up.