Do you let your clerics have all the spells?

[Festivus]

I give all core PHB spells to the cleric, any extras must be prayed for or otherwise obtained.

 

[Drowbane]

I let Clerics have access to all spells on the cleric spell list. Sounds good for the PCs until they see that cleric NPCs have access to the same spells.

qft

 

[airwalkrr]

I think this thread skirts on the line between house rules and general, but it's all good. I usually do not have as pronounced of a problem as the OP with this issue as my players are usually more controlled. However, similar issues have come up. The easiest way to deal with them is to simply tell them to run everything by me first and give me warning. But even that sometimes causes problems.

Here is the method I currently use. Players are allowed to select one spell from outside the PH per spell level to add to their class spell list. For example, the healer and druid in my campaign are 11th level and have access to 6th level spells. Therefore each player may have up to six spells added to his spell list from outside the PH. These spells may be of any level, with the stipulation that they must be capable of casting the spell at the time they choose the new one. Hence, the healer could have two 5th level spells, but not two 6th level spells. This system has worked very well in allowing a bit of extra flexibility while not letting things get totally out of hand. If I could go back in time I might disallow healing lorecall, but it isn't horribly overpowered and I don't like changing my mind on something like that unless it is really disrupting the game.

I have thought of other methods for handling this too. 1) One is to use the RPGA D&D Campaigns method. A player can choose one rules item from outside the three core rulebooks for each character level. This rules item may be a feat, a spell, a magic item, a mundane item, or a prestige class. 2) Another method I have thought of is to allow a character one sourcebook to use in addition to the core rules and nothing else (and compilations like the Spell Compendium do not count). So an elf may choose Races of Destiny to add some extra elfy options to his character, or the fighter may choose Complete Warrior to give himself access to better fighting feats. 3) Then, there is always the draconian method: learning any ability outside the PH requires research. For spells the PC must follow the rules for original spell research (and if you want to be a real stickler about it, the player doesn't even know whether you'll allow the spell until his PC has finished his research). For feats, the PC must spend two weeks training with a guild or military establishment. To join a prestige class, the PC must join an in-character organization in the world. To get an item, the PC must research the item (usually spending 1.5 of the item's cost in research to try to develop a prototype).

 

[Perun]

I have a 13th-level druid character in a currently on-hiatus game, and the DM has pretty much given me the hands open approach when it comes to spells and wild shape forms. I'd always prepare either short descriptions and stat block of new spells (and wild shape forms), or I'd type and print them, and always at least a couple days before the next session (so my DM was fully aware of any new spell or form I brought to the game).

The character became a bureaucratic nightmare. I had, effectively, a 1.5-cm-thick character sheet. I'd take up half the gaming table with my papers, ond I'd often lose my actual character sheet in that mess. Now I've been traumatised with open-ended spell list characters (one of the main reasons I'm playing the first ever sorcerer in our group currently).

My advice? Core only spells, plus whatever's important for the campaign.

As an option, perhaps introducing a feat similar to the initiate line of feats (from FR and CD); each time the character selects it, he can pick a number of spells equal to 3 + his Wis modifier that he can permanently add to his spell list.

IMO, this would work best if combined with divine magical writings approach right there in the PH, so if the plaer wants a quick, easy way to gain new spells he can just take the feat, or, if he's feat-stingy , he can go and search for spells through adventuring.

 

[ForceUser]

Sorry about the ranting, but how do you deal with new cleric spells? I find wizard spells easy to introduce. If i want a spell to be in, I throw a scroll into the next treasure hoard, or I let the player pick a couple when they level up. But clerics get access to everything. Isn't introducing tons of new spells a problem?

I allow most spells from WotC sources, provided I have a copy of the book. The caveat for clerics, however, I got from Piratecat--your spell list is limited in size such that it must be equal to the list in the PHB. If you want to use new spells, you have to make room for them by giving up old spells. This has had the effect of making each player character cleric's spell list unique, and has given me a framework within which I can allow most new cleric spells without allowing clerics to gain more power each time a new supplement arrives.

As for the curmudgeonly fixation on limiting clerics to healing and buffing, I'd say "Welcome to 3rd edition" and "it's time to let it go." Nobody wants to be, in the terminology of online gamers, a "buff bot." Every player, even those playing healers, want to feel like his character is kickass, cool and special. If you take a look at cleric damage spells, pound for pound they are weaker than wizard damage spells. So why not let the cleric rain down holy fire once in a while if it will make the player happy?

 

[Nyaricus]

I think this thread skirts on the line between house rules and general, but it's all good.

Not really; this is actually more of a problem a DM is having with his player adding supplimentary material to the game 5 minutes before it starts, which is a Bad Thing (tm), and causes unecessary stress.

Crystal Keep is all 100% official WotC stuff, but that doesn't justify it in my book. I own most of the WotC books I need, including enough PHBs for the entire group, less one or two, but I wouldn't let in stuff from books I don't physically own. If a player has DLed a book that I do not own and wants to use stuff from it, I'd turn hiim down. If it's stuff that I do own, oh well - I own it anyways.

If there are things I don't want in my game, I am upfront about it. Simple as that.

 

[FireLance]

One is to use the RPGA D&D Campaigns method. A player can choose one rules item from outside the three core rulebooks for each character level. This rules item may be a feat, a spell, a magic item, a mundane item, or a prestige class.

This is the approach I use in my campaign. I find it is a good balance between opening options for the player while keeping the characters more or less on par with each other.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Heh. And suddenly running NPCs becomes ten times harder!

Just have 2 cleric NPCs and have them cast whatever the PC cleric cast the round before. They are bound to be worth casting if the PC is casting it.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

He insists he's not min/maxing but most of his choices appear to be made solely for their tactical value ("cleric is just the best class", "I want to play a 'little person' who rides a dog and wileds a lance, but I'm not a halfling")

The cleric part can be considered powergaming or min/maxing, but remember why the cleric is so strong. Suggest to the players that they insist the party cleric heals them. If he doesn't, why should they have him around? Don't do your job and you get voted out of the party. That means he might have a thousand cool spells, but most of them get converted into healing, anyway.

The little person part might just be that he doesn't want to play a halfling in particular (out of fear of being called a pervy hobbit-fancier ), but wants to play a small character. Can be solved with showing him other small races or doing the proper adjustment to a human to be "undersized" (I think of something like small size, -2 str, +2 dex)

Just before my last session he hands me a stack of print outs. "I found a bunch of spells online for my cleric. They're all from WotC books so they're official."

In that case, I'd say: Not this time. I might look at them, but it will take time, and before I have looked at them, they're not in.

And I wouldn't count them as Genuine Wizards spells unless he has the actual book. Who knows they haven't been tampered with (whether by him or by someone else)?

So I take a look at the spells . What is the deal with all of the cleric damage spells? "Nimbus of Light"? "Deific Vengeance"? Maybe I'm an old curmudgeon, but shouldn't clerics be pretty limited to healing and buffing?

You're an old cumudgeon . Cleric shouldn't be limited to healing and buffing. They should be good at the alignment-based stuff (holy word), at invoking divine assistance (conjuration spells to summon or call deific aid) and a couple of other things beside buffing and healing.

They should not be good at direct damage. But they're not. Not even with Nimbus of Light or Deific Vengeance. They can't hold a candle to a wizard. After all, there always was Flame Strike. But wizards' damage spells on the same level will always be more effective. Deific vengeance is 1d8 per two levels or something like that. On that level, wizards get scorching ray, (agannazar's) scorch(er), snilloc's snowball swarm, melf's acid arrow. These spells outperform deific vengeance in damage and/or affected area, and in one case SR appliance.

What spells like these do is to make a passable spelldamage dealer out of clerics, which can be good when stuff like that is needed and the wizard isn't quite up for the task (or he's not around)

Sorry about the ranting, but how do you deal with new cleric spells? I find wizard spells easy to introduce. If i want a spell to be in, I throw a scroll into the next treasure hoard, or I let the player pick a couple when they level up. But clerics get access to everything. Isn't introducing tons of new spells a problem?

I just allow clerics (and other divine casters) all sources, never really had a problem with it.

Of course, in my next game, there won't be clerics. It's either Midnight (where there's only channelers) or homebrew, using 3 classes (warrior, expert, spellcaster) and Elements of Magic, meaning all spells that could ever be cast are already there, without the need of any extra books.

 

[Darth K'Trava]

Spellcasting is the cleric's class feature. Because their spell list is utilitarian and the core game assumes you have access to many of these utilities, a lot of clerics do end up exactly the same. If you allow fighters to take their bonus feats from noncore books, why not allow a cleric to prepare spells from a noncore book?

To answer your question, no, it has never been a problem for me, either as a DM or as the de facto cleric player.

Our group's clerics have access to all the spells we have books for. I've made out a list of all the spells good aligned clerics will be able to cast (most of us don't do evil campaigns). Also, they have access to sanctified spells as well. I've used a few of them, taking the sacrifice cost to cast one.

Wizards are allowed to pull their spells from other books as well; there's no limit on the sources.

Although final approval will be the DM's call.