Do you make changes with 3e Rogues?

[Mark]

The adaptability of the 3E Rogue has been very useful for me as a DM and d20 Supplement Designer. There are many more permutations to throw at players and keep them guessing just what will come next...

(Welcome Lurks-no-More! )

 

[LostSoul]

However, I'm a little worried the 3e thief/rogue has lost it's uniqueness.

The Rogue Class has lost some of its unique flavour, but each individual Rogue Character is more unique that a 2e (and especially 1e) Rogue or Thief.

 

[LostSoul]

IMC, I have almost no items that grant a skill bonus. (Ok, I have not that many magic items anyway, but those are even rarer...)

You can deal with Skill-granting magic items in two ways: balance out someone who has a low rank, or specialize someone who already has a high rank in the skill. Who's more likely to take Shadow or Silent Move armour, the Rogue or the Fighter? And if the Rogue does take the +10 to Hide, he doesn't have to spend points in that skill any longer, giving him another point to put into Disable Device or Diplomacy, or any other skill he's been neglecting.

 

[johnsemlak]

Re: Re: Do you make changes with 3e Rogues?

The Rogue Class has lost some of its unique flavour, but each individual Rogue Character is more unique that a 2e (and especially 1e) Rogue or Thief.

I would go on to say that in 3e each individual character of all classes is more unique, with the possibilities to choose feats and skills. But it seems to affect the rogue more, I think becuase with the rogue, developing the skills is necessary to develop the core abilities of the class, not just some side abilities.

No arguing the 3e rogue has its good points. If I were to write the rules though, I suppose I'd try to make more of the core rogue abilities (admittedly, there are loads of people who disagree on what 'core rogue abilities are) inherent special abilities as opposed to skills you pick up.

Maybe a solution is to create new core classes (one being basically the old 1e thief). I'm interested in lookiing at the new 'Assasin' class books that have come out. Also, are there any other rogue-related classes that have been created for 3e (I havne't seen Oriental adventures, but I assume the Ninja and the Yakuza make appearances)?

 

[Grundle]

Re: Re: Re: Do you make changes with 3e Rogues?

No arguing the 3e rogue has its good points. If I were to write the rules though, I suppose I'd try to make more of the core rogue abilities (admittedly, there are loads of people who disagree on what 'core rogue abilities are) inherent special abilities as opposed to skills you pick up.

Don't know about you guys, but I've never seen a non-rogue character spend skill points to buy cross-class ranks in a rogue-ish skill like Disable Device, etc. DCs for finding and disabling traps are set with the rogue in mind. Trying to find and disable traps with a measly amount of cross class ranks is a good way to wind up a puddle of goo on the dungeon floor.

It just doesn't make sense to spend those valuable points to be at best 1/2 as skilled as a rogue will be when you could take a level of rogue and get far more bang for your skill point buck.

An that's IMHO is the real beauty of 3e... (largely) balanced choice in character development.

 

[Swack-Iron]

And if the Rogue does take the +10 to Hide, he doesn't have to spend points in that skill any longer, giving him another point to put into Disable Device or Diplomacy, or any other skill he's been neglecting.

I completely disagree. Your plan works well right up until your Rogue goes up against an NPC rogue that's kept skills maxed and is using similar items; the NPC will far outstrip your rogue in ability. In our parties we've found it's better to keep the skill-enhancing items with the characters who are already experts in those skills, since it just makes them that much better.

 

[Desdichado]

Wow, I was thinking of going to complete opposite direction with the rogue as you propose, and making something more along the lines of the Star Wars Scoundrel, or the Wheel of Time Wanderer. Why should rogues, especially if they are thieves, have this assassin-like "sneak attack" bonus, for instance?

 

[Felon]

Rogues get to use slings in my games.
I can't think of any city-savvy burglar or cutpurse going around with a bow slung over his shoulder, but what about a leather strap wrapped around his belt? Just pick up some rocks, and you have instant armament.

I keep forgetting that rogues can't use slings in 3e. A simple, stealthy, short-range weapon and rogues can't use it. Seems dumb, and wrong.

But then again, I suppose I'm still conjuring up images of the assassins' guild slingers from the Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser stories.

 

[drnuncheon]

I'd like to see feats and PrC's that take a certain amount of sneak attack damage and turn it into something else.

While I'm looking forward to all the HoHF books, I feel like I should point out that this is one of the things that the generally forgettable Song & Silence did right - the feats Arterial Strike (give up 1d6 for wounding) and Hamstring (give up 2d6 to halve their move).

Of course, like the rest of the book, they didn't do enough of them.

J

 

[WizarDru]

I keep forgetting that rogues can't use slings in 3e. A simple, stealthy, short-range weapon and rogues can't use it. Seems dumb, and wrong.

Stealthy to carry, perhaps, but hardly stealthy to use, don't you think?

Anyhow, the 3E rogue is most versatile class in the game, IMHO, being able to represent a fairly diverse range of characters, all within one class. Combined with the ability to multiclass, you can create quite a set of interesting combos with them.

It should also be pointed out that while other classes may be able to get Disable Device, the PHB and DMG are quite clear that only Rogues can deactivate magical ones. The diverse set of skills allow rogues to excel at non-combat functions, but work well as sly fighters in a pinch. Some of the best rogue feats, such as Expertise, require a 13+ INT...that coupled with the skill bonuses makes it a rogue's second best friend, after Dex. The best way to compensate for lower hit points is to never get hit at all.

As for the high bonus skill items...quite frankly, it's not an issue. The rogue will need those at later levels to be able to sneak, suprise, eavesdrop, evade and deactivate the various things she may encounter. DC35 magic traps are not uncommon in the early teens, for example. Add to that the limitation of slots, and you're even more limited. One can't wear a Cape of the Mountebank and Cloak of Elvenkind at the same time, nor Boots of Striding and Springing and Boots of Spiderclimb. It all balances. Use magic device massively increases the rogue's usefulness to the group (backup healer, backup wizard, backup anything).

Rogues, quite simply, rock. But then, so do most of the classes in 3E, IMHO.