D&D 5E Do you miss attribute minimums/maximums?

[Lylandra]

Extraordinary Abilities were non-magical magic. They allowed you to break the laws of physics, which means that they are pretty supernatural in origin, despite the game rule saying that they are not.

No. The game rules specifically give those metals their abilities and provide reasons for them to be in the game. The game rules provide no reason at all for halflings to be as strong as a half-orc.

Hm... but both of your statements are interpretations of the written text. EX break "the laws of physics" (which I read as "our laws of physics and our known limits of RL earth biology"), yes. This is RAW. But this is not "supernatural" in the game definition of the word supernatural. It is super-natural compared to our RL "nature".

Halfling strength is not marked as EX, no. But neither is orc strength. Or Darkvision. Or most other non-use racial features. And you'd have to agree that especially Darkvision is somehow super-natural as it doesn't exist in our world. Not in the way it works in D&D at least. It is not explained though. Orcs just have it. For unknown reasons. (I guess a nod to Tolkien)

The game rules also give halflings their attributes. They neither discuss the physical properties of adamant (which would be interesting for me as a chemist ), nor the biological properties of halfling body structure Besides the stuff we see from the outside. Maybe they have two gastric systems and this is why they eat so much? Halflings and other small races do eat as much as their medium sized counterparts, right? So they do use the same amount of energy for a much smaller body.... see where we get from there?

Well, I am differentiating between Adamant(ine) in D&D and what was called Adamant (or adamas) in RL. Every really hard material was called adamas in ancient Greece. This included "proto-steel", corundum and diamond (though it is unknown whether ancient people would differentiate between corund and diamond even if diamond is one Mohs score ahead of the corund.). These materials were considered unbreakable (=adamas), even if we know that they are not.

Some say that medieval alchemists later used "Adamant" (which is probably why there is the english attribute "adamant" in the first place) as a name for really hard (and maybe unobtainable, mythical) minerals. Tolkien uses Adamant as a really hard gemstone as well.

In D&D, adamant(ine) (when its properties are described more detailed) is a metal. D&D regularly uses steel, so these two are not the same (in contrast to ancient Greece). This is logical, as cutting a gemstone in a way that it can be worn as full plate armor would be quite a task (yeah, I have seen diamond armor in some JRPGs, but... eh...). For 5e, there is a few months old thread in these forums where adamant is being discussed http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?517756-Is-adamantine-a-metal

 

[Arnwolf666]

I thought I would miss them when I started playing 5e, but I was wrong- PC's are the top 1% of the top 1% and are meant to be outside the norm. If that means my halfling ranger can out arm wrestle a goliath barbarian, so be it.

Not a criticism that you are having badwrongfun. But I want the opposite in a game. I don't want the DM to tell me I am looking at a person that is 5 foot tall 100 pounds and then have that person win at arm wrestling a 300 pounds man ripped with muscles. I'm a sword and sorcery player I like my humans with the limitations of being a human. Otherwise I would play Wuxia or Anime games.

 

[JonnyP71]

One of my problems with an 'allow all' approach...

'Exceptional' becomes 'expected'

'Unusual' becomes 'mundane'

I much prefer a game in which the party are mostly Human, mostly core classes, where there are maybe a couple of demi-humans, perhaps one of those might be multi-classed, and just possibly one of the humans might have high enough ability scores to be a 'special' class.

Because that keeps those classes 'special', and it keep the game somewhat more grounded as a whole. The grittier sense of pseudo-realism seems to encourage more investment in character personality and motive, rather than the cartoony 'wow look at all the kewl stuff I can do' approach.

I have absolutely zero interest in either playing or DMing a game in which someone is a Pixie Warlock/Barbarian, and another player is an Aarakokra Paladin/Sorceror, and so on.... Those players are welcome to have their fun, but preferably somewhere where I can neither see nor hear them.

 

[schnee]

One of my problems with an 'allow all' approach...

'Exceptional' becomes 'expected'

'Unusual' becomes 'mundane'

Because that keeps those classes 'special', and it keep the game somewhat more grounded as a whole. The grittier sense of pseudo-realism seems to encourage more investment in character personality and motive, rather than the cartoony 'wow look at all the kewl stuff I can do' approach.

I find it odd that you have to paint another gaming style with such a caricature, and assuming that everyone who doesn't do it exactly like you is lacking depth and substance and is unable to create meaningful characters.

I've found that untrue, frankly. The less constriction makes for people able to express things the old-school D&D couldn't do. But, it's all about each table, and the game is big enough for many ways to play it.



edit: thought about it, changed 'opposite' to 'untrue', that's not fair either

 

[akr71]

Do you miss attribute minimums/maximums?

About as much as I miss having a male actor play the Doctor. Which is to say not at all.

I like to play D&D because it is a fantasy RPG where the only limits are your own imagination. You wanna play a super buff female halfling - go for it. A demure, soft-spoken, bookish half-orc? Why not.

 

[Lylandra]

I find it odd that you have to paint another gaming style with such a caricature, and assuming that everyone who doesn't do it exactly like you is lacking depth and substance and is unable to create meaningful characters.

I've found the opposite, frankly. The less constriction makes for people able to express things the old-school D&D couldn't do. But, it's all about each table, and the game is big enough for many ways to play it.

Yep. It totally depends on the players, the GM and their imagination. I actually loved seeing a well-thought and valorous elven Paladin in one of our 3.5 campaigns.

Too many people equate "being able to combine what you want" with "all my PCs will be min/maxed hybrids with no real backstory for the lulz". Combining stuff sensibly allows for so much of a broader spectrum of playstyles. For example, theme campaigns. Like playing an order of Paladins. Or a dwarven clan. Or stretching your imagination to find a good backstory and personality for your half-orc wizard or elven barbarian or dragonborn hermit.

Also, playing mundane is fine. But this doesn't automatically equate to better character roleplay. Just because you were Pip the squire of Sir Covington from Memuria and then became knighted as Sir Piperandus at the age of 21, fell in love with a lady above your station and started adventuring to increase your social standing, this doesn't mean that this story is in any way superior to, say, a dragonborn favored soul who was reincarnated by a messenger of Bahamut because said person failed to protect a holy shrine of the god in his previous life as a human and is now on a quest to help all dragonkind in need.

 

[Pauln6]

Such rules only mean anything if the numbers inform your mental image of your PC as they do for me. However, because they do, I wouldn't be so silly to build a halfling with Str20. Other players only look at races and stats in terms of mechanics so they want that 20 because they want that 20.

I even get a nervous twitch when they tweak giant strength ratings. Of course frost giants are stronger than stone giants, you Fools!

If caps are set, it's probably better to adjust them from 1e ratings slightly. So human, dwarf, and half orc males would cap at 20 strength with everyone else at 19 and halflings at 18. You can then just set women at 2 points below that if you want. Half orcs should probably cap wisdom at 16. Dwarf dex or halfling wisdom capped at 18 etc. The net effect would make almost no difference but elves would be secure in the knowledge that only they could achieve dex 20. Seems like a lot of effort though...

 

[Maxperson]

Halfling strength is not marked as EX, no. But neither is orc strength. Or Darkvision. Or most other non-use racial features. And you'd have to agree that especially Darkvision is somehow super-natural as it doesn't exist in our world. Not in the way it works in D&D at least. It is not explained though. Orcs just have it. For unknown reasons. (I guess a nod to Tolkien)

"The diminutive halflings survive in a world full of larger creatures by avoiding notice or, barring that, avoiding offense. Standing about 3 feet tall, they appear relatively harmless and so have managed to survive for centuries in the shadow of empires and on the edges of wars and political strife. They are inclined to be stout, weighing between 40 and 45 pounds."

So physically they are diminutive and stout(fat), and are 3 feet tall weighing 40-45 pounds. Yeah, that says strong(sarcasm).

"Half-orcs’ grayish pigmentation, sloping foreheads, jutting jaws, prominent teeth, and towering builds make their orcish heritage plain for all to see. Half-orcs stand between 6 and 7 feet tall and usually weigh between 180 and 250 pounds."

Physically a half-orc is 6-7 feet tall, weights 180-250 pounds and has a towering build. Yeah, that says that they are the equal of the halfling(more sarcasm).

The game text simply doesn't back up halflings being as strong as half-orcs.

Well, I am differentiating between Adamant(ine) in D&D and what was called Adamant (or adamas) in RL. Every really hard material was called adamas in ancient Greece. This included "proto-steel", corundum and diamond (though it is unknown whether ancient people would differentiate between corund and diamond even if diamond is one Mohs score ahead of the corund.). These materials were considered unbreakable (=adamas), even if we know that they are not.

In AD&D Adamantine is from meteorites. It's basically star metal. 3e didn't specify that I don't think, but it didn't change it, either, and I have no idea what 4e mentioned it as.

 

[Obryn]

One of my problems with an 'allow all' approach...

'Exceptional' becomes 'expected'

'Unusual' becomes 'mundane'

Nonsense. Pure balderdash.

The game text simply doesn't back up halflings being as strong as half-orcs.

Of course it does. The game text explicitly allows halflings to be as strong as half-orcs.

 

[Maxperson]

Of course it does. The game text explicitly allows halflings to be as strong as half-orcs.

Don't be a smartass. You know I'm talking about the descriptions, not the actual rules.