D&D 5E Do you miss attribute minimums/maximums?

[Sadras]

Thanks @billd91. Something to watch out for then if and when I implement the change.

Just regarding the two abilities you spoke of:
Our table plays with encumbrance, so carrying capacity/movement is something the players do consider. We currently have travel movement and combat movement on the character sheets. Combat movement is only used when they drop their backpack with items.
The party consists of a Sorcerer, Cleric, 2 x Wizard and a Fighter/Wizard. 4 out of the 5 classes have low STR.

With regards to Leadership - I would also add the 5e Attunement rule. PCs would be deciding against number of attuned items vs bonuses to their social skills.

 

[Lanefan]

There might be ways to have a decent 12-stat game (Mutants and Masterminds does a fantastic job of doing it with 8 instead of six - Strength and Dexterity are each broken into 2 stats), but the method in Players Option: Skills and Powers wasn't going to get you there.

For each stat, you rolled the dice. And from that base number you established your two sub-stats by, effectively, bumping one of the up by as many as two from that base while dumping the other substat by the same amount. It was basically a stat-dumping, min-maxer's wet dream. Strength was divided between Stamina and Muscle. Stamina determined your carrying capacity while Muscle governed all of the other Strength-based characteristics like hit bonus, damage bonus, bending bars, and opening doors. Guess which of the two got dumped all the time?

It wasn't that there were no interesting ideas - Charisma was broken down into Leadership and Appearance - the former drove loyalty and number of henchmen while the latter drove reaction adjustment. But too many of the choices of boosting/dumping were foregone conclusions. It was almost like every PC got a free +2 on nearly all of the stats that mattered most to them. There were few choices to agonize over when agonizing over choices is one of the hallmarks of a well-designed game where options are well-balanced and few are dominant.

I wonder whether it could work after two big tweaks are done:

1. Better division of what benefits go under which split-side. Using your example of strength, Stamina could maybe take in everything strength-related except combat, with Muscle only affecting to-hit and damage. Or, you could even go a step further and have Stamina affect to-hit and Muscle affect damage...?
2. A better roll-up method. One idea I had was that you generate two independent sets of S-I-W-D-Co-Ch stats however you normally would then take the two S scores and put one into Muscle and the other into Stamina; one of the two I scores goes into Memory, the other into Intellect; and so on down the line.

Lan-"maybe later this week I'll sit down and put some serious thought into this, see where it goes"-efan

 

[The Crimson Binome]

TStrength was divided between Stamina and Muscle. Stamina determined your carrying capacity while Muscle governed all of the other Strength-based characteristics like hit bonus, damage bonus, bending bars, and opening doors. Guess which of the two got dumped all the time?

It depends on whether you were playing a fighter or a wizard. A fighter could boost their Muscle from 16 up to 18, to rake in massive bonuses. The wizard could sink their Muscle from 8 down to 6, leaving them 10 Stamina so they could still carry a few things.

That's true of any game design where you are asked to make choices, though. For any decision you could possibly make, there is one choice which is mathematically superior. Every choice that is offered moves the game one step further away from being purely class-based and toward being free-form point-buy, where the former is infinitely easier to balance than the latter.

 

[Coroc]

Thanks @billd91. Something to watch out for then if and when I implement the change.

Just regarding the two abilities you spoke of:
Our table plays with encumbrance, so carrying capacity/movement is something the players do consider. We currently have travel movement and combat movement on the character sheets. Combat movement is only used when they drop their backpack with items.
The party consists of a Sorcerer, Cleric, 2 x Wizard and a Fighter/Wizard. 4 out of the 5 classes have low STR.

With regards to Leadership - I would also add the 5e Attunement rule. PCs would be deciding against number of attuned items vs bonuses to their social skills.

Encumbrance is another relic. I do use it on my table but differently. Think about slots.
A player can carry a main weapon 1 handed + shield (e.g. spear) or a two handed weapon (e.g. halberd ) a sidearm (e.g. sword), a dagger in his belt, a dagger in his boot and an armor a ranged weapon on his back and his backpack. And that is it.
And NO you cannot carry a great sword on your back nor a halberdthat is utter .

I do not count the weight of objects but I got strength minimums on the medium and heavy armor

 

[Satyrn]

Encumbrance is another relic. I do use it on my table but differently. Think about slots.
A player can carry a main weapon 1 handed + shield (e.g. spear) or a two handed weapon (e.g. halberd ) a sidearm (e.g. sword), a dagger in his belt, a dagger in his boot and an armor a ranged weapon on his back and his backpack. And that is it.
And NO you cannot carry a great sword on your back nor a halberdthat is utter .

I do not count the weight of objects but I got strength minimums on the medium and heavy armor

I've considered doing slots, too, although it would work differently. A character would have a number of slots equal to their Strength score (not modifier).

Each item held or carried takes a slot, with a few exceptions:

A bundle of ammo or a set of thrown weapons counts as 1item
Armor counts as a number of items equal to its AC - 10.
And a few other similar things.

 

[Coroc]

I've considered doing slots, too, although it would work differently. A character would have a number of slots equal to their Strength score (not modifier).

Each item held or carried takes a slot, with a few exceptions:

A bundle of ammo or a set of thrown weapons counts as 1item
Armor counts as a number of items equal to its AC - 10.
And a few other similar things.

That is a nice idea but not according to 5Es keep it simple credo, but yea it is an interesting approach.

 

[Satyrn]

That is a nice idea but not according to 5Es keep it simple credo, but yea it is an interesting approach.

Well, there really wouldn't be many exceptions. Probably just a couple more so that a loot bag of coins adds up to a hefty lot and a rider being a sufficient burden on a mount so a cavalier's horse can't double as a pack mule.

 

[Obryn]

That's true of any game design where you are asked to make choices, though. For any decision you could possibly make, there is one choice which is mathematically superior. Every choice that is offered moves the game one step further away from being purely class-based and toward being free-form point-buy, where the former is infinitely easier to balance than the latter.

I'm all for interesting choices, but the split-stats from Skills & Powers largely didn't make for them. They primarily made for obvious and boring ones, which served to power up some PCs for little cost. (Except of course when both halves of a stat were helpful - and in those cases, you left it untouched. Which also wasn't a very interesting choice.)

Then again, I mostly think D&D should get more abstract and pare down to maybe 3-4 stats instead of adding more. (Or just go whole hog and kill ability scores altogether, rolling their benefits into the game's math and class progressions. I'd be fine with that, too!)

 

[Sadras]

I do not count the weight of objects but I got strength minimums on the medium and heavy armor

Unless characters are using steeds, the weight from a fully kitted backpack really pushes the softer STR classes and even some heavily armoured ones into encumbered territory. The fighter at our table is encumbered and he has an 18 STR. It is quick to work out and it doesn't even need to be exact. Once it is electronically recorded, it is easy to manipulate thereafter so its not a chore.

Slots can work, but they can also get away from you if you a Fighter is DEX-based and it allows the non-STR classes to really capitalise since it makes STR a little to no-consequence dump stat.

 

[cbwjm]

I've considered doing slots, too, although it would work differently. A character would have a number of slots equal to their Strength score (not modifier).

Each item held or carried takes a slot, with a few exceptions:

A bundle of ammo or a set of thrown weapons counts as 1item
Armor counts as a number of items equal to its AC - 10.
And a few other similar things.

I've thought of using slots as well. Thus system seems pretty simple. I could probably easily use it as a base for a slot system.