D&D 5E Do you miss attribute minimums/maximums?

[Coroc]

I think the real question is how do we tell which is which?

That probably could depend upon whether the observer is male or female himself, no?

 

[Helldritch]

Beauty is in the Eye of the beholder. (pun intended...)

 

[Lanefan]

What min/max requirement would like to see for races?
For my self (min/max)
Dragon Born: ST: 12/22, Dex: -/18, Con: 8/20, int: -/20, Wis: 10/20, Cha: 11/21
Dwarf: ST: 12/21 or 22*, Dex: -/18 Con: 12/22, Int: -/20, Wis: 11/21*, Cha: -/18 or 19
Elves: ST: -/18, Dex: 12/22, Con: 9/19 int: 11/21*, wsd: 11/21* Cha: 11/21*
Half-Elves: No min max or as elves for minimums.
Half-Orcs: ST: 12/22, Dex: -/20, Con: 12/21, int: -/19, wis: -/20, cha: -/ 16
Halfling ST: -/16, Dex: 12/22, Cn: 10/20 or 22*, int: -/20, wis: -/20, Cha:11/20 or 22*
Gnomes: ST: -/16, Dex: 11/20 or 21*, Con: 11/20 or 21*, Int: 12/22, wis: -/20, cha -/20
Tieflings: ST: -/20, Dex: -/20, Con: -/20, Int: 11/21, wis: -/18, cha: 12/22.

That is just a sketch. What do you say?

YMy first thought is all the minimums are way too high...but then it occurred to me that you're probably starting from a point buy or array setup that (ridiculously, IMO) doesn't go lower than 8.

From my viewpoint, the way to approach this is twofold:

For initial roll-up stats, use the human 3-18 bell curve as a basis then look at each stat for each other race and see how it compares at each end. What does the lowest-strength Dwarf look like compared to a Human (probably about 7)? How strong can the strongest Elf get, relative to a Human (I'd say 16)? And so on.

Then, assuming an absolute max of 20 in each stat as the Human default, go through again but this time asking what the absolute max would be for each stat by race. This part you've basically got right other than quibbles here and there about specific numbers.

Lanefan

 

[Hussar]

See, that's the trick though Lanefan. You're saying that the strongest an elf gets to a human is 16 vs 18. Thing is, there's very, very little difference there. +1 to hit and damage and a bit of carrying capacity. That's it. So, I'm half your size, because a big elf and a big human are about that ratio - the biggest elf weighs 130 pounds, while the biggest human about 190. Giving up sixty pounds is only that bit of a difference in stats? The elf can carry 240 pounds comfortably, while the human is carting around 270. Hrm, doesn't seem like that much difference. I'm about half your size but, I can carry pretty much anything you can?

That's why I'm so dead set against this. The system just isn't granular enough to make this make sense.

 

[Satyrn]

I think the real question is how do we tell which is which?

See, I have a theory for this. I posit that elves and dwarves actually belong to the same species, and that in their language "elf" means female and "dwarf" means male.

 

[ccs]

In my experience, character creation in AD&D starts with rolling dice and ends with picking a name. With female humans capped at 18/50, I could easily imagine the player (regardless of gender) making the character male if they rolled over that. I could also imagine a player specifically making the character female if they happened to roll exactly 18/50, because it's such a rare roll.

Well yeah. In AD&D only people who like disappointment or aren't rolling for their stats pick character details before they generate their #s.
You need the stats in order to see what the rest of your options are (or aren't).

I'm having more trouble imagining a player who rolls 18/00, and then consciously chooses to make the character female, with full knowledge of what they're giving up.

I suppose it's happened.
Afterall, I just rolled up a 1/2ling barbarian for our PF game. 1/2lings there have a -2 on str. So I put the one & only 18 I rolled into str - knowing it'd drop to a 16.
If it were only about the #s, then logic would dictate that 1) my barbarian would NOT be a 1/2ling, 2) In fact I'd pick a race that boosted str.

 

[Lanefan]

See, that's the trick though Lanefan. You're saying that the strongest an elf gets to a human is 16 vs 18. Thing is, there's very, very little difference there. +1 to hit and damage and a bit of carrying capacity. That's it. So, I'm half your size, because a big elf and a big human are about that ratio - the biggest elf weighs 130 pounds, while the biggest human about 190. Giving up sixty pounds is only that bit of a difference in stats? The elf can carry 240 pounds comfortably, while the human is carting around 270. Hrm, doesn't seem like that much difference. I'm about half your size but, I can carry pretty much anything you can?

That's why I'm so dead set against this. The system just isn't granular enough to make this make sense.

Yeah. I'm used to a system that has non-linear bonuses and scaling, and where the difference between 16 and 18 is much greater than, say, the difference between 10 and 14.

Which makes me wonder: maybe linear bonuses aren't the answer...

Lan-"bell curves and J-curves have their place, and it may well be here"-efan

 

[Helldritch]

YMy first thought is all the minimums are way too high...but then it occurred to me that you're probably starting from a point buy or array setup that (ridiculously, IMO) doesn't go lower than 8.

From my viewpoint, the way to approach this is twofold:

For initial roll-up stats, use the human 3-18 bell curve as a basis then look at each stat for each other race and see how it compares at each end. What does the lowest-strength Dwarf look like compared to a Human (probably about 7)? How strong can the strongest Elf get, relative to a Human (I'd say 16)? And so on.

Then, assuming an absolute max of 20 in each stat as the Human default, go through again but this time asking what the absolute max would be for each stat by race. This part you've basically got right other than quibbles here and there about specific numbers.

Lanefan

Yep, since most people here use the point buy or the array, I imagined that it is what should be used as a basis. The 3-18 bell curve isn't bad. But If I wanted to use the 3-18 bell curve, I'd go straigth to my Unearthed Arcana of 1ed and use those racials min/max right from the book.

As for the class minimums, I'd say that 12 should be the absolute minimum to be a member of that class unless you are multiclassing, in which case I'd use the min stats for multiclassing.

OR

Entry way is the Multiclassing minimal stats, and for multiclassing, add two to the required stats.

 

[Sadras]

For Racial Traits, the Ability Table would need to be flatter, so I'm thinking:
12-15 = +1 modifier (Halfling and Elf STR)
16-18 = +2 modifier (Dwarf, Gnome and Human STR)
19-21 = +3 modifier (Half-Orc STR)
22-24 = +4 modifier (Ogre and Troll STR)
...etc

(a) Flatter table means accuracy on attack rolls would not be compromised, and the attack roll would depend largely one's skill (proficiency bonus), combat style and magic.

(b) Then to adjust for Half-Orc Strength, one could include a racial trait that doubled the STR modifier for damage. (i.e. 19 STR Half-Orc would deal +6 damage).
STR would now be quite important in terms of carrying capacity, but also in all fairness halfling & elven armour would be smaller (i.e. lighter) than human armour given the size of a halflings and elves. That would have to be taken into consideration.
Gauntlets of Ogre Power - could give someone the ability to hit at +4, and to deal damage of +8. You could easily include a drawback that using this item in a fight would cost smaller races a Hit Dice as the items drew energy from their physical reserves or something.

From the table below abilities for Halflings, Elves, Dwarves and Gnomes is at 106 Points, while Humans at 108 and Half Orcs at 110 but the modifiers see Dwarves & Humans at +12, Halflings and Gnomes at +13, and Half Orcs and Elves at +14. Feats, skills and racial traits would balance the ability score and mod disproportionment.

Story elements (including rewards) and magic could see character's break the racial cap - without going into epic ability territory since the ability system would be flatter.

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]RACE/ABILITIES[/TD]
[TD]STR[/TD]
[TD]DEX[/TD]
[TD]CON[/TD]
[TD]INT[/TD]
[TD]WIS[/TD]
[TD]CHA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Human (108 points) (+12 mod)[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Half-Orc (108 pnts) (+14 mod)[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Halfling (106 pnts) (+13 mod)[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Elf (106 pnts) (+14 mod)[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dwarf (106 pnts) (+12 mod)[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gnome (106 pnts) (+13 mod)[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Yeah. I'm used to a system that has non-linear bonuses and scaling, and where the difference between 16 and 18 is much greater than, say, the difference between 10 and 14.

Which makes me wonder: maybe linear bonuses aren't the answer...

Lan-"bell curves and J-curves have their place, and it may well be here"-efan

What does the scaling have to do with it? Any scale can be mapped to any other scale. If you want a dramatic difference between elves and humans, you can do it on a linear scale just by making the elves' cap 12 and the humans' cap 24, or whatever other values match their abilities on the nonlinear scale. And on a linear scale, it'd be a whole lot more transparent that there is a dramatic difference there, too.