D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

[Faolyn]

I still have not seen any indication that they could reliably get a message to your contact on another plane, I am not sure they even can at all, and they still have no reason to, just because you have the criminal background

With the Vistani, I believe it was established that they can cross planar lines. Whether they can in your game or not is up to you--I don't think I'd allow it in my game, but as I said, I don't like the "weekend in hell" Ravenloft and prefer that people who happen to fall into Ravenloft stay in Ravenloft, Vistani included.

That being said, I did say whether the Vistani would help you or not depends on a lot of factors. If the party goes out of their way to help them in a matter of life or death, they may be more than willing to get a message somewhere. Which doesn't need to be across planar lines, because as I've also said, there's nothing stopping a PC from getting another contact.

you cannot just leave a message in a hollow trunk and it somehow makes it to your contact... Magic I disregarded because we are talking about the feature, not about ways to contact a person. For the same reason establishing new contacts is irrelevant, anyone can do that.

Except that the criminal PC has an edge. Their feature grants them a contact. If they can't have access to One Eyed Bob because Bob is in another city/continent/planet/plane, then they can get a new one. The fact that "anyone" can do that is irrelevant.

no, the messenger is relevant because that is how you get the message to your contact

And as I pointed out, there's many ways to do that. That makes the messenger unimportant. The messenger isn't the one who is going to introduce you to the criminal network, after all.

whatever they mean by that... it also says you know the messengers, so if you are in a place where you know no one, you are out of luck with that

And as I said before, there's nothing stopping you from meeting new messengers. I would require the player to RP that out first, but once they did, they'd know a messenger who can get a message to their contact, who may be One-Eyed Bob, his Dark-Powers-supplied simulacrum, or someone entirely new.

I do not need a feature for the characters to get messages to people in organizations they have met in the game, or does that not work in your game unless someone chose the criminal background...

So tell me. If this is the case, what do you do with players whose backgrounds give them a contact or way to send messages? What sort of feature do you give them in exchange for removing their existing one?

 

[mamba]

I don't agree that contact = messenger for that ability. The contact says network of other criminals and can get messages to and from him. Why would you need a message from a messenger?

I do not need a message from a messenger, I need a messenger to get the message to and from the contact. If I could just meet the guy in person, a messenger would not be necessary.

So if you say I need a good reason for a message to not reach the contact when someone has the criminal background, then I consider them being in foreign lands where they do not know anyone to serve as a messenger a good enough reason.

 

[mamba]

With the Vistani, I believe it was established that they can cross planar lines.

not to my knowledge, my undersdanding is that the end up in a different Ravenloft domain and have no control over where they go. That once in 2000 years or so some Vistani were spotted in FR means nothing to me.

Regardless of that, they do not know your contact, they are not the messengers you know and they have no reason to help you simply because you have that feature, you will need something more than that at a minimum

That being said, I did say whether the Vistani would help you or not depends on a lot of factors.

so we are in agreement there, which also means the feature does not apply

Except that the criminal PC has an edge. Their feature grants them a contact.

the contact is the recipient of the message, they still know that person, I did not take anything away here. As to an edge, I said they would have an easier time making contact with the shady side of Ravenloft. That still does not help them in reaching the contact from their background for the reasons above, but it might well make contacting that person unnecessary

And as I pointed out, there's many ways to do that. That makes the messenger unimportant. The messenger isn't the one who is going to introduce you to the criminal network, after all.

if you need introducing, we are no longer talking about the feature

And as I said before, there's nothing stopping you from meeting new messengers. I would require the player to RP that out first, but once they did, they'd know a messenger who can get a message to their contact, who may be One-Eyed Bob, his Dark-Powers-supplied simulacrum, or someone entirely new.

someone new is not the contact from the background, so they still cannot reach their contact from the background, other than that I agree with this, they can establish new contacts. This does not make use of the feature however.

So tell me. If this is the case, what do you do with players whose backgrounds give them a contact or way to send messages? What sort of feature do you give them in exchange for removing their existing one?

I am not generally removing their feature, but it is limited in range. They always have an easier time recognizing / noticing and becoming friends with the 'local underground' wherever they are however

 

[Maxperson]

I do not need a message from a messenger, I need a messenger to get the message to and from the contact. If I could just meet the guy in person, a messenger would not be necessary.

So if you say I need a good reason for a message to not reach the contact when someone has the criminal background, then I consider them being in foreign lands where they do not know anyone to serve as a messenger a good enough reason.

Here. Maybe this will help you see what I'm saying.

PC with criminal background has made a contact with a local fence.

PC: "Frakir, I need you to set up a meeting between myself and guildmaster Rakir."
Frakir: "Let me see what I can do. Come back in three days and I will let you know."
PC: "Sounds good. I'll see you in three days."
Three days layteer
PC: "Ho! Frakir! What did you find out?"
Frakir: "The guildmaster is busy and will not meet with you."
PC: "I had hoped to tell him this in person, but I guess I won't be able to. Would you give him this message please?"
Frakir: "Of course!"

vs. PC without the criminal background.

PC: "Frakir, I need you to set up a meeting between myself and guildmaster Rakir."
Frakir: "Let me see what I can do. Come back in three days and I will let you know."
PC: "Sounds good. I'll see you in three days."
Three days layteer
PC: "Ho! Frakir! What did you find out?"
Frakir: "The guildmaster is busy and will not meet with you."
PC: "I had hoped to tell him this in person, but I guess I won't be able to. Would you give him this message please?"
One failed persuasion check later.
Frakir: "I have already done you a favor. No more freebies. I'm not going to carry this message to you unless you bring me the McGuffin of Money Making from the mayor's house. He keeps it on the mantle of the fireplace in the sitting room."

The criminal background still matters. He didn't have to roll to persuade Frakir to do him another favor.

 

[mamba]

Here. Maybe this will help you see what I'm saying.

So guildmaster Rakir is your contact from the background feature, at least in my answer

I have no issue with the first conversation, that is how it would work, if you were in an area where you know anyone who knows Rakir (which Ravenloft is not...)

The second conversation could go very differently in my view

PC: "Frakir, I need you to set up a meeting between myself and guildmaster Rakir."
Frakir: "I do not know this guildmaster Rakir that you are speaking of".

yours also can work, it all depends on how well Frakir already knows the character

In Ravenloft both conversation would end with "I do not know this guildmaster Rakir that you are speaking of", and it would be true.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

So do you guys realise that you have been arguing for two hundred pages about a feature that will be removed in 5.5.?
Like regardless of whether the sailor had a contact on board or not, that ship has sailed.

 

[mamba]

So do you guys realise that you have been arguing for two hundred pages about a feature that will be removed in 5.5.?

yes, if anything this is a great reason to remove them

 

[Maxperson]

So guildmaster Rakir is your contact from the background feature, at least in my answer

I have no issue with the first conversation, that is how it would work, if you were in an area where you know anyone who knows Rakir (which Ravenloft is not...)

The second conversation could go very differently in my view

PC: "Frakir, I need you to set up a meeting between myself and guildmaster Rakir."
Frakir: "I do not know this guildmaster Rakir that you are speaking of".

yours also can work, it all depends on how well Frakir already knows the character

In Ravenloft both conversation would end with "I do not know this guildmaster Rakir that you are speaking of", and it would be true.

Okay. We seem to have wires crossed somewhere! I'm talking about two PCs who end up in a domain in Ravenloft and make a new underworld contact there. Frakir the Fence. Neither PC knows Rakir, the local guildmaster personally.

 

[mamba]

Okay. We seem to have wires crossed somewhere! I'm talking about two PCs who end up in a domain in Ravenloft and make a new underworld contact there. Frakir the Fence. Neither PC knows Rakir, the local guildmaster personally.

but somehow they learned of Rakir's existence, ok, now we are on the same page.

No, then it will depend on how well Frakir already knows the character, regardless of whether one of them has the criminal background.

Initially they both would simply get

PC: "Frakir, I need you to set up a meeting between myself and guildmaster Rakir."
Frakir: "I do not know this guildmaster Rakir that you are speaking of".

but the criminal will gain trust faster and advance to

PC: "Frakir, I need you to set up a meeting between myself and guildmaster Rakir."
Frakir: "Let me see what I can do. Come back in three days and I will let you know."
PC: "Sounds good. I'll see you in three days."
Three days layteer
PC: "Ho! Frakir! What did you find out?"
Frakir: "The guildmaster is busy and will not meet with you."
PC: "I had hoped to tell him this in person, but I guess I won't be able to. Would you give him this message please?"
One failed persuasion check later.
Frakir: "I have already done you a favor. No more freebies. I'm not going to carry this message to you unless you bring me the McGuffin of Money Making from the mayor's house. He keeps it on the mantle of the fireplace in the sitting room."

sooner, they would also have advantage on the check

Eventually they can both get to your

PC: "Frakir, I need you to set up a meeting between myself and guildmaster Rakir."
Frakir: "Let me see what I can do. Come back in three days and I will let you know."
PC: "Sounds good. I'll see you in three days."
Three days layteer
PC: "Ho! Frakir! What did you find out?"
Frakir: "The guildmaster is busy and will not meet with you."
PC: "I had hoped to tell him this in person, but I guess I won't be able to. Would you give him this message please?"
Frakir: "Of course!"

however. The criminal will again arrive there faster, but the other character also can

 

[tsadkiel]

Ironically, Ravenloft is the only official D&D setting I know of that has reliable mail service.

Due to the danger and unreliability of traveling the Mists, those few with interests beyond their home domains make letter writing their preferred method of communication. A group called the Keepers of the Feather (detailed in the “Travelers in the Mists” section later in this chapter) oversees a private network of carrier ravens that possesses the uncanny ability to navigate the Mists. These ravens deliver envelopes and tiny parcels between private rookeries maintained by the Keepers. Individuals and businesses friendly with the Keepers—such as a village notary or inn—might surreptitiously contract their services, allowing customers to send a letter for 1 gp. These letters must include a destination where another Keeper can receive them, then either hold or deliver the correspondence—with delivery costs an additional 1 gp. Letters take at least one day to deliver. The Keepers of the Feather make no assurances about the safe delivery of letters in their charge, but their services prove relatively reliable.

Only within the mists, obviously, but you need to have letters if you're going to properly simulate Gothic fiction, and especially Dracula.

(This is not me taking a position on the endless background feature argument; I did a lengthy readthrough of Van Richten's Guide on another board and I happen to think that this particular setting feature is clever.)