Do you prefer D20 or To Hit and Save Tables

[awayfarer]

I game with a group that uses Rolemaster and thereby, charts. The critical charts can be funny to read but lose their appeal after a while and combat can be VERY slow at times. "Roll, look at chart, roll for critical, look at chart, etc"

Meh, I'd rather roll.

 

[Nifft]

So, one has to wonder, why didn't Gygax just use a D20 system to begin with (or something like it).

Why didn't Julius Caesar create a railroad network crossing Europe? Some guy had recently invented a steam engine, after all.

Good ideas aren't always obvious at the time. They can take some time to catch on. Luckily, we're allowed to move forward, keeping the good and replacing the bad, but what we think is good and bad may change as we gain experience.

The mark of true genius is coming up with an idea that is novel, but in retrospect seems obvious.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Qualidar]

I always assumed Gygax added this complication for a reason, but why? Perhaps for the reasons I mentioned, or perhaps to just add a layer of complexity to
"kiddie" OD&D.

That's a pretty bold assumption. My assumption would be that he never thought of it. I never thought of it, either, but when I saw it, it was my main reason for upgrading to 3.0.

~Qualidar~

 

[Numion]

God damn you pulled a ninja edit on me.. :mad .. soo here's the original

Numion, please chill out, this is not a debate, let people share their opinions (as they are) no reason to get nasty. Anyhow, I'm sure Pirate Cat would appreciate not having to lock another thread.

I wasn't being nasty. I was just surprised that you everything in 1E good design. But I guess you knew that since you ninja-edited it out and replaced with touchy. I was just sharing my opinion like you so eloquently put.

So, one has to wonder, why didn't Gygax just use a D20 system to begin with (or something like it). Why create all these head aches over tables? Its not like D20 wasn't obvious ( infact to make the tables he'd have had to first developed a D20 system and then reverse engineer it).

Many good ideas seem obvious in retrospect. Never attribute to genius..ness anything that can be sufficiently explained by stupidity I mean .. sometimes bad design decisions are just bad decisions with no hidden stroke of genius behind it, that we, mere mortals, cannot comprehend.

 

[Rel]

So, one has to wonder, why didn't Gygax just use a D20 system to begin with (or something like it). Why create all these head aches over tables? Its not like D20 wasn't obvious ( infact to make the tables he'd have had to first developed a D20 system and then reverse engineer it).

My guess would be that D&D in its early form was directly descended from tabletop wargaming. Tabletop wargaming is chart-heavy in my experience. So it probably just seemed natural to include a chart.

Also, the fact that two moderators have posted in this thread means that Big Grandmother is watching and it would be unwise for folks to snipe at each other or try to turn this into an Edition War thread.

 

[BryonD]

Tables were a mystery?
Tables give the DM control? Certainly not if the DM is USING them.

Let's see, an arbitrary and inconsistent procedure that requires referencing or a simple consistent method that flows easily.

I'll take the latter and my D20. Thanks

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I prefer the D20 version out of those 2.

I have no problems for tables with some kind of non-linear resolution... ex - the DC heroes system.

But I'd rather not use a table if I didn't have to.

 

[tx7321]

My guess would be that D&D in its early form was directly descended from tabletop wargaming. Tabletop wargaming is chart-heavy in my experience. So it probably just seemed natural to include a chart.

Thats what I was thinking as well, yet the trend was to simplify (and the tables from 1E are much more involved then OD&D) and as others have noted THACO was already out there, so why complicate it? Hell, before we heard of THACO we did something similar just to avoid having to lug around the DMG on vacations etc (very similar to D20 really). I also find the "lower is better" interesting, anyone know why he chose to go this way (besides Hong's drunk theory)?

 

[ColonelHardisson]

So, one has to wonder, why didn't Gygax just use a D20 system to begin with (or something like it). Why create all these head aches over tables? Its not like D20 wasn't obvious ( infact to make the tables he'd have had to first developed a D20 system and then reverse engineer it).

That's a good question. I have no real idea. Do you? I mean, really, it's probably not as obvious as it might appear. Gygax was almost certainly inspired by the minis wargames D&D grew out of. Maybe the answer lies there (I really don't know much about minis games, especially of the pre-D&D era).

As I've said before, I was playing 1e AD&D from 1979 to 1989-90. THAC0 made things simpler, and d20 really made things more streamlined. Aside from nostalgia and loyalty inspiring a preference for charts, I don't see how you could not see where d20 is an improvement in at least this one area. If it's nostalgia and familiarity, then that's cool. I can understand that. That's why I didn't mind the combat charts reappearing in HackMaster; that game is predicated upon a fondness for the old game, and isn't concerned with streamlining things.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Thats what I was thinking as well, yet the trend was to simplify (and the tables from 1E are much more involved then OD&D) and as others have noted THACO was already out there, so why complicate it? Hell, before we heard of THACO we did something similar just to avoid having to lug around the DMG on vacations etc (very similar to D20 really). I also find the "lower is better" interesting, anyone know why he chose to go this way (besides Hong's drunk theory)?

Again, no clue. Remember, he was making the game essentially from whole cloth, with little else to reference. It may not be that it was so obvious that another way was simpler. He may just have been resistant to revision once the game was published, used to playing it the way he cerated it in the first place.