D&D 5E Do You Prefer Sandbox or Party Level Areas In Your Game World?

So these are two approaches that campaigns can (and do) use. They have various names, but I'm using these names. I've used both approaches in the past. Obviously there is more nuance than the definitions below, but these are two possible extreme ends of the poll when voting feel free to choose whichever end you tend towards, or embellish in the comments. Sandbox -- each area on the world...

Sandbox or party?

  • Sandbox

    Votes: 152 67.0%
  • Party

    Votes: 75 33.0%

So these are two approaches that campaigns can (and do) use. They have various names, but I'm using these names. I've used both approaches in the past.

Obviously there is more nuance than the definitions below, but these are two possible extreme ends of the poll when voting feel free to choose whichever end you tend towards, or embellish in the comments.

40651CFE-C7E4-45D5-863C-6F54A9B05F25.jpeg


Sandbox -- each area on the world map has a set difficulty, and if you're a low level party and wander into a dangerous area, you're in trouble. The Shire is low level, Moria is high level. Those are 'absolute' values and aren't dependent on who's traveling through.

Party -- adventurers encounter challenges appropriate to their level wherever they are on the map. A low level party in Moria just meets a few goblins. A high level party meets a balrog!

Which do you prefer?
 

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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
"Should" is very strong with some people. You and I have been on opposite sides of this in the past. I stand in-between you and some of the others in this thread and when my line is between me and you, we debate opposing positions. When it's between me and someone further, like now, we agree.

I think it depends on what the situation is, what the justifications/possibilities are, and where people draw their lines. Sometimes the "could" and "might" will be fine for the group and there's no issue. Other times the "should" will be stronger and it causes an issue.
Yeah, and I personally think people who lean too much toward "should" are really just painting themselves into a corner in this context. To me that's a problem to be fixed, not endured. And even if someone is more of a "should" person and lands on the reason being the DM didn't prep heavily enough instead of it being just another mystery to solve, I'd have to wonder why that person is so seemingly cynical. Like I'm pretty cynical, but wow, given the choice between "DM flumphed up" and "another mystery to solve," I'm going with the latter every time because that ultimately leans into what we're trying to achieve at the table.
 

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There are no absolutes in Fantasy; and as far as that goes there should be none in a Fantasy RPG. Whatever works works. Defining sandbox for one will not define it for another. There are too many variables, past, present and future. Even more structured play has its variances starting with defining what ons views (or others view) as structure. The proof of one's play/design experience is always in the intuited approach to engagement which leads to changes and collects a breadth of feedback that in the best of cases hones the approach. It's quite like applying a single daub of paint to a canvas and then standing back to decide which paint to apply next in relation to the first. It's always a new start, especially when considering the complexity levels possible with a living canvas of a Fantastic Imaginary World. I for one believe that such variance creates different models that might lead as future examples in design; this is the way the creative crucible of D&D was fashioned, in fact, by bucking the entrenched models of the day. Did that change those that wanted to adhere to those models? No. Did it usher in a new era in games that we all correspond to in some ways? Yes. It's all good for who it's good for.
 
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happyhermit

Adventurer
And, sure, that's true at some level -- both have rice -- but it's also profoundly missing the point. This doesn't really happen much with food, though, because there's a wide awareness that there are different cuisines these days, but it still happens with RPGs.
Not a bad analogy. You can still see similar responses on youtube, with Xpeople react to Xfood, things often get quickly categorized as "like our x" even when they are fundamentally quite different.

Experience with other systems just allows one to better select flavors that they like -- it doesn't make them any more enlightened.
Agreed, although with the caveat that they might already be playing a game that's a great fit for them and learning/playing a bunch of new systems might just involve a lot of playing games wherein they have less fun.

So, 100% with your reaction to some of this stuff, and understand how that might influence your take on the games they created (although I think Burning Wheel, as a game book, avoids the loaded language).
I like a lot of things where I have major issues with the creators, and I had a positive opinion of the Fate community and PbtA when getting into those games. It's not a factor, I wasn't intending on playing Burning Wheel again regardless, the recent issues with the creator just make it less likely I keep the books despite the fact that I keep everything these days.

I'm not sure where you fall on this spectrum -- you haven't said what it is about the games above you dislike other than the author of one -- but it seems you've made an effort, and for that I'm very appreciative. It also seems to have come with chip on your shoulder, so maybe not altogether great, but still, anyone even willing to read some of those rulesets is definitely something I appreciate.
I wasn't reading/using those rulesets in order to be appreciated or do something benevolent, I was hoping for great experiences. The chip on my shoulder seems to me not one bit larger than yours, though I will say right now I really appreciate how civil this post was. You get "irked" when people seem to you to not understand the games they are criticizing, I feel the need to comment when I feel fans of these games come off as "elitist" is probably a sufficient catch-all term I suppose.

I mean, even here, where you are being very polite you come across several times as; "Well... you had this baggage about the authors, so I don't know if you really gave it a fair chance" It just gets old.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Not a bad analogy. You can still see similar responses on youtube, with Xpeople react to Xfood, things often get quickly categorized as "like our x" even when they are fundamentally quite different.


Agreed, although with the caveat that they might already be playing a game that's a great fit for them and learning/playing a bunch of new systems might just involve a lot of playing games wherein they have less fun.


I like a lot of things where I have major issues with the creators, and I had a positive opinion of the Fate community and PbtA when getting into those games. It's not a factor, I wasn't intending on playing Burning Wheel again regardless, the recent issues with the creator just make it less likely I keep the books despite the fact that I keep everything these days.


I wasn't reading/using those rulesets in order to be appreciated or do something benevolent, I was hoping for great experiences. The chip on my shoulder seems to me not one bit larger than yours, though I will say right now I really appreciate how civil this post was. You get "irked" when people seem to you to not understand the games they are criticizing, I feel the need to comment when I feel fans of these games come off as "elitist" is probably a sufficient catch-all term I suppose.
So, I'm all ears for a way to talk to people about curried rice when they have no experience with it and make bad assumptions that doesn't run any risk of sounding elitist -- do you have any suggestions? I've tried many ways, many times, and while I've had success in some places, I still get accusations of elitism.
I mean, even here, where you are being very polite you come across several times as; "Well... you had this baggage about the authors, so I don't know if you really gave it a fair chance" It just gets old.
Well, I didn't say that. What I said what I couldn't tell because all you told me about was the baggage. And I then extended the benefit of the doubt.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yeah, and I personally think people who lean too much toward "should" are really just painting themselves into a corner in this context. To me that's a problem to be fixed, not endured. And even if someone is more of a "should" person and lands on the reason being the DM didn't prep heavily enough instead of it being just another mystery to solve, I'd have to wonder why that person is so seemingly cynical. Like I'm pretty cynical, but wow, given the choice between "DM flumphed up" and "another mystery to solve," I'm going with the latter every time because that ultimately leans into what we're trying to achieve at the table.
One of the things standing in the middle the way I do does for me, is give me insight into both sides. Painting themselves into a corner isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you and I go into a house and are given an hour to clean and organize, my corner will look a lot better than the rest of the house, even though the rest of the house has more space and options.

Some people prefer nice and tidy corners over a house that is clean, but not as nice and tidy. Others want to enjoy the entire house, even if it's not quite as clean. I don't view either way as a problem to be fixed and have personally enjoyed both sides and the middle during my time gaming. The most important thing is to find a group that likes what you like and just have fun. :)
 

So, I'm all ears for a way to talk to people about curried rice when they have no experience with it and make bad assumptions that doesn't run any risk of sounding elitist -- do you have any suggestions? I've tried many ways, many times, and while I've had success in some places, I still get accusations of elitism.
Generally it's the assumption that people who don't view a thing the way you do don't have experience with a thing. Or, frankly, even doubting/questioning that someone who has a different view has no/less experience with it.

Because lack of experience may be the reason they view it differently, when you guess that and you're wrong you will absolutely come across as elitist and closed-minded, because you dismiss the experiences of others before you even engage them.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Generally it's the assumption that people who don't view a thing the way you do don't have experience with a thing. Or, frankly, even doubting/questioning that someone who has a different view has no/less experience with it.
Let's look at this. The other options are to assume they do have experience -- clearly a non-starter, or to ask. I've try asking and had posters get weirdly defensive and cagey, and sometimes even end up hostile because of the question. Or being told that the game doesn't matter, RPGs work the same way. I mean, damned if you do.
Because lack of experience may be the reason they view it differently, when you guess that and you're wrong you will absolutely come across as elitist and closed-minded, because you dismiss the experiences of others before you even engage them.
Let's look at this. I was posting in response to someone else, that does appear to have no experience outside of D&D, when you responded to me initially. My response to that was that I think that most people lack experience, to which you responded with an accusation of elitism. If the argument is that I should be careful, then this seems like it didn't work. It's pretty obvious most people do lack a lot of experience. It's also clear that I allowed that some people have it, and I did not characterize you in either category, leaving it up to individuals to self-sort. But, this carefulness still netted my an accusation. So, I've followed your advice, but still ended up in the same place.

Do you, perhaps, see the difficulty?

Let me present a different case, that has some similarities, and see if it sparks any comments: I'm an electrical engineer, with a focus on communications, and a decades long career. You almost certainly have a system I helped design in your pocket or nearby. I'm pretty savvy about comms stuff. I just had my ISP provider out to update my service and correct an intermittent disconnect issue we've had for a few months. I suspected that my router was failing or that the wiring had gone bad, but not completely failed. When the tech came out, I didn't tell him my education or work history, but told him about the issues I was having. He suggested it might be the wireless home phone base station that was about a foot away from the router. I knew that this was pretty far fetched -- sure they can operate on the same bandwidths, but they don't use the same modulation schema, so interference is slight and wouldn't cause the issues I had without something badly being wrong with the phone (which there isn't, because I had recently moved the base station and the problem predated that move). Turns out the tech traced the problem to the wiring and ended up having to replace the exterior connections, the walljack, and the interior cabling to fix the issue. Point being, I didn't get upset because the tech treated me like I didn't know anything, even though I did. The vast amount of experience the tech has is with people who legit don't know anything. I'm not due special exception because I buck the trend until and unless I make it politely clear that I do so.

In other words, do I bear all responsibility in these interactions, or do other posters also have some duty?
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I think Luke Crane got cancelled last week.
I don't follow Crane at all, but I looked around after you said this. Looks like he's caught a bloody nose for not anticipating what blowback including a previously cancelled designer in the credits for Crane's latest kickstarter, but hasn't yet been cancelled himself.
 

In other words, do I bear all responsibility in these interactions, or do other posters also have some duty?
Of course both parties bear responsibility, but: if you're regularly getting called out for elitism, there's definitely something you're frequently doing that's getting on people's nerves. And frankly I don't think there's a way to argue your "experience" is a key factor in how well you understand game without sounding elitist, simply because there's no way you have so much more experience in how someone else is playing to be able to tall them what they're feeling as they play better than they can tell for themselves.

If you smell dog poo all day, check your shoes.
 

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