D&D 5E Do You Prefer Sandbox or Party Level Areas In Your Game World?

So these are two approaches that campaigns can (and do) use. They have various names, but I'm using these names. I've used both approaches in the past. Obviously there is more nuance than the definitions below, but these are two possible extreme ends of the poll when voting feel free to choose whichever end you tend towards, or embellish in the comments. Sandbox -- each area on the world...

Sandbox or party?

  • Sandbox

    Votes: 152 67.0%
  • Party

    Votes: 75 33.0%

So these are two approaches that campaigns can (and do) use. They have various names, but I'm using these names. I've used both approaches in the past.

Obviously there is more nuance than the definitions below, but these are two possible extreme ends of the poll when voting feel free to choose whichever end you tend towards, or embellish in the comments.

40651CFE-C7E4-45D5-863C-6F54A9B05F25.jpeg


Sandbox -- each area on the world map has a set difficulty, and if you're a low level party and wander into a dangerous area, you're in trouble. The Shire is low level, Moria is high level. Those are 'absolute' values and aren't dependent on who's traveling through.

Party -- adventurers encounter challenges appropriate to their level wherever they are on the map. A low level party in Moria just meets a few goblins. A high level party meets a balrog!

Which do you prefer?
 

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Emerikol

Adventurer
Hi Pemerton! Can't say I disagree. The ordering of priority Game>Campaign>Players does not feel right to me, although I think there is a valid point in there about not bending to player wishes if you think it will harm the game. But that's ultimately about what is best for the GM and the other players, not the Game as an abstraction.

I do think 1e AD&D is more suited to ignoring & changing swathes of rules than is 5e. I was annoyed by the GM (who had mostly ran 1e) who declared after play had started that Rogues could not Sneak Attack when shooting into melee, since that is a huge nerf to the class which he said was for reasons of realism. Whereas running 1e there are a whole lot of different valid approaches to Backstab.
We should realize too that in those days DM's had campaigns and players came and went.

I am very up front with my players. I will tell you what your characters senses are revealing. The "rules" do not exist to your character. You are roleplaying your character. The degree that rules influence your thinking they are the accepted wisdom of the community. Now it would be insane to say the accepted wisdom of the community completely contradicts reality. How did that wisdom come about? On the other extreme it would be insane for a character to be thinking "That's impossible" as he watches it happen.

And of course this often comes down to an interpretation of a rule. So it's a gray area. Or it does come down to houserules and where it is known by the PCs and not. For example, I do not consider the monster manual or the magic item lists as player knowledge. I'm not stopping them from looking at those things but I am by no means promising to adhere to what is written at all. That is my solution to the old advice that you don't let your players read the DMG and Monster Manual. That has over the years with so many people being both players and DMs become totally impractical. I just tell the group not to trust those books.

If I as a DM, houseruled fireballs from d6 to d4 then of course I would tell them that at the start of the campaign. That is a pretty hokey example but another might be X and Y races don't exist in the campaign world. Or only these classes are allowed.

The game is the rules. The DM if up front has the right to run the game he wants to run. And players have the right to opt in or opt out. Without rancor by me I'll add. The campaign is more about what elements are allowed in the game or perhaps changed. Monsters and magic items for example. If a player says "I want to go find the eye of Vecna", the very first question I might ask "How did your character hear about such a thing?" If they are persistent and no eye of Vecna exists in my campaign world then I just let them waste a few game months rolling dice until they realize there is no eye of Vecna. There is no implied promise of anything in a campaign setting. So the reason Gygax has it Game > Campaign > Characters can be explained this way. Houserules > Campaign setting decisions > Character preferences. Now that greater than sign does not mean always. It means if you are really invested in something that is the order of priority.

I may spend 200 hours prepping a campaign setting (as I run more than one campaign in a setting often). I start building them long before the players know I'm even going to run a game. I am lucky if some of the players have prepared anything at all before they show up. They've got zero hours invested.

Edit:
And to make clear. EVERYTHING is not important. So you when it is not important to you as DM then by all means give the players what they ask for. That is the common case. I'm just saying when it really matters to you the DM then you should take a stand.
 

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pemerton

Legend
I do think 1e AD&D is more suited to ignoring & changing swathes of rules than is 5e. I was annoyed by the GM (who had mostly ran 1e) who declared after play had started that Rogues could not Sneak Attack when shooting into melee, since that is a huge nerf to the class which he said was for reasons of realism. Whereas running 1e there are a whole lot of different valid approaches to Backstab.
Do you remember the two of us posting years ago about the difference between 4e and AD&D when it comes to (say) levying a 1d10 hp penalty ("pscyhic damage") as a cost of failure - that in 4e this is fair game, but in AD&D would be unfairness on the part of the GM?

What you describe seems to me to have the same problem, though reversed because what is fair in AD&D is being unfairly applied in 5e. It shows (in my view) a lack of sensitivity on the GM's part to the rationale for that aspect of the 5e rules.
 

Emerikol

Adventurer
I do think 1e AD&D is more suited to ignoring & changing swathes of rules than is 5e. I was annoyed by the GM (who had mostly ran 1e) who declared after play had started that Rogues could not Sneak Attack when shooting into melee, since that is a huge nerf to the class which he said was for reasons of realism. Whereas running 1e there are a whole lot of different valid approaches to Backstab.

Do you remember the two of us posting years ago about the difference between 4e and AD&D when it comes to (say) levying a 1d10 hp penalty ("pscyhic damage") as a cost of failure - that in 4e this is fair game, but in AD&D would be unfairness on the part of the GM?

What you describe seems to me to have the same problem, though reversed because what is fair in AD&D is being unfairly applied in 5e. It shows (in my view) a lack of sensitivity on the GM's part to the rationale for that aspect of the 5e rules.

I absolutely think imposing a house rule which directly affects a characters abilities without notice is a bad thing. I don't necessarily think it's wrong to have a house rule. I just think you should let the players know about such an obvious change. The real challenge is when the DM believes his interpretation of a rule is standard and a player who has played elsewhere believes a different interpretation is standard. I do agree (hopefully after 5 editions!) that this is less likely in newer editions than in the old ones.
 

pemerton

Legend
The game is the rules. The DM if up front has the right to run the game he wants to run. And players have the right to opt in or opt out.
I don't know what work is being done here by the phrase the right. All you're saying is that someone who wants to GM a game (they don't become "the GM" until they actually start GMing) can offer up x, and that others may or may not want to play x. But it's not as if we're talking about blind declarations, or a formal auction, or something of that sort. Just like I can talk to my friends about where to go for dinner, so I can talk to my friends about what RPG we want to play together.
 


Emerikol

Adventurer
Maybe not. But the house rule @S'mon described seems pretty bad to me.
Yeah I wanted to weigh in on the concept in general as opposed to the validity of that specific case. I think a lot of times house rules are DMs imposing their own vision of reality, right or wrong, on a game but not always. Obviously a second common reason would just be campaign flavor and on average those tend to be better than the former.
 

S'mon

Legend
Do you remember the two of us posting years ago about the difference between 4e and AD&D when it comes to (say) levying a 1d10 hp penalty ("pscyhic damage") as a cost of failure - that in 4e this is fair game, but in AD&D would be unfairness on the part of the GM?

What you describe seems to me to have the same problem, though reversed because what is fair in AD&D is being unfairly applied in 5e. It shows (in my view) a lack of sensitivity on the GM's part to the rationale for that aspect of the 5e rules.
Aye, yes. I think it's important that the GM gets a feel for the game and not (mis)apply approaches appropriate to other games & editions*. 5e is pretty flexible but like 4e it does assume that all PCs can at least contribute significantly in combat; it assumes a pretty high degree of in-combat class balance. So removing attack cantrips or significantly nerfing sneak attack is a bigger change than a 1e GM might appreciate.

*I've definitely been guilty of this with repeated attempts to run an exploratory sandbox in 4e D&D! :D Luckily 5e D&D can do that style very well, as well as handling 4e style dramatics pretty well too.
 
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S'mon

Legend
I absolutely think imposing a house rule which directly affects a characters abilities without notice is a bad thing.

Yes, my objection was to this being brought up during play - during combat. If the GM had announced pre game "Don't play a Rogue if you want to be effective at ranged combat" or even "Don't play a Rogue" then I wouldn't have minded.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
And how did this new D&D perspective come to be? I ask so as to best find ways to undo it...
It's been part of the community since the beginning, far as I can tell, it's just grown in popularity over time. Because people want to tell stories together more than they want to play adverserial old school Gygaxian DnD.
 

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