Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Yeah, that's it.
Wonder why I couldn't find it using search...I found tons of other threads with "combat" or "war" in their titles...
Do you prefer TTRPG combat as war or as sport?
- Thread starter MNblockhead
- Start date
Wonder why I couldn't find it using search...I found tons of other threads with "combat" or "war" in their titles...
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
It helps you understand your players and what they want from the game, along with how they're going to approach it. Which is useful, sometimes.
And what would be the definition for war as art or drama?
Personally I am for war all the way because it allows for more creativity and I find nearly all attempts to make combat into a sport extremly silly and they utterly destroy versimilitude.
I'd assume Combat as Drama to be the situation where the GM creates situations which are a challenge to the PCs personalities and values rather than their ability to win the fight - that last is pretty much taken for granted given that the GM can inevitably create encounters that are far beyond the capability of any party to win, and use tactics that give them no chance to. Instead of treating the fight and the enemies who have to be defeated as the important thing, make the challenge between different values that the PCs care about, about whether they choose to save the innocents who will burn to death if they don't act or chase down the long-standing villain and finally catch him to prevent him doing any more, ah, villainy.
In terms of the CAS encounter-budgeted 'fair' fight vs the CAW 'life's not fair approach', I lean towards CAW, but certainly not all the way. I certainly give some heed to level-appropriateness, but far less than modern RPG designs tend to advocate for. I expect my groups to either find some way to win the impossible battle, avoid/evade/flee the impossible battle, or look good dying.
My approach seems to work fine in most editions, early experience of 3e being a notable exception - but I had the bad luck to have one very dysfunctional player whose psychology made successful CAW impossible for him, and he had the charisma to impose his distorted view of the game world on the group.
My approach seems to work fine in most editions, early experience of 3e being a notable exception - but I had the bad luck to have one very dysfunctional player whose psychology made successful CAW impossible for him, and he had the charisma to impose his distorted view of the game world on the group.
Blue
Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I mentioned a bunch of different types of encounters over my wall of text, my best is this bit: "[M]y favorite combats are where there's more at stake then HPs. Rescues, what-have you. Things that make you adapt and think instead of "just" trying to run the foes out of HPs before you do yourself." (My second guess is where I was talking about Combat as Sport and putting in things to showcase various characers.)
If I guessed wrong let me know.
Here's a few of the last scenes I ran that fit the bill:
After multiple adventures broken up over their career of helping the druids to complete a set of McGuffins, they have returned late with the last ones and the mystic-level head of all druids is in a bad place. The plan was that in order to prevent a world-destroying tragedy she would sacrifice her life to fertilize a new world tree. But because the players were late, she had been infected herself. They battled to her (some normal attrition battles), but the final battle was scaled to utterly defeat them - though not too quickly. But their goal wasn't to win via defeating the foe, it was to use an item given to them that would temporarily cleanse her so she would stop powering the foes and be able able to complete the ritual. Dealing with it as a regular combat would have been suicidal. They just needed to figure that out and change from "defeat them" to "reach her at any costs and do the cleansing".
A previous encounter had them escaping from a collapsing Ice Castle after having slain the frost giant sorceress and her consort. They were pursued by frost giant zombies. Could they defeat the zombies? Yes, but they were bags of HPs and it would have taken time. Would that time wasted also have collapsed the castle on their head? Also yes. So it turned into a running battle where they couldn't afford to slow down or stay engaged, and if someone drops you can't leave them behind.
Examples off the top of my head:
Cultists are completing a ritual which will soon summon demonic aid. Do you spend time countering the ritual (Religion or Arcana checks to delay it), going after the cultists chanting (who aren't attacking you), or the muscle that actually hurting you? Either way there are pros and cons to your choices.
A bunch of ghouls attacking a funeral party after the graveyard had been desecrated. Very limited chances for AoE, and plenty of bystanders for the mindless but feral/hungry ghouls to go after. Probably an easy battle if it was a room a dungeon, but do you finish off ones you are engaged with or leave them to go after ones dropping and eating commoners?
Quickleaf
Legend
[MENTION=6796661]MNblockhead[/MENTION] I replied "Mostly War" because I like the creativity and hi-jinx that ensue from thinking outside the box. I also feel that other mediums handle "Combat as Sport" better than TTRPGs, including video games, SCA events, and martial arts. This is probably tied up with my view of RPGs being equally as important as an educational and self-development tool, as they are social entertainment. I very much think RPGs should challenge the players, not just their characters; that's what makes RPGs unique from other forms of gaming IMHO.
At my table, I usually have a mix of players who lean toward Sport or toward War. So I keep tabs on the pulse of the group; if the "Combat as Sport" folks are getting restless, then I make sure to include a more involved "staged" action scene as soon as I can. And I usually give some consideration to both action scene framing & NPCs' schemes / lair defenses in advance of each session, so that helps keep my sessions pretty balanced.
At my table, I usually have a mix of players who lean toward Sport or toward War. So I keep tabs on the pulse of the group; if the "Combat as Sport" folks are getting restless, then I make sure to include a more involved "staged" action scene as soon as I can. And I usually give some consideration to both action scene framing & NPCs' schemes / lair defenses in advance of each session, so that helps keep my sessions pretty balanced.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
And that assumes everyone in the party make even-remotely-logical choices.
Not long after it came out, I adapted 4e's Keep on the Shadowfell for 1e and ran it. *** SPOILER ALERT ***
In the final room Kalarel (the BBEG) is supposed to be partway through summoning some tentacled horror and when the party arrives it's already coming through the gate. So what do these guys do? Sure, some of them attack and kill Kalarel and his cohorts, but one attacks the tentacled horror (a very bad idea), one tries to close the gate (a very good idea), and - wait for it - thinking he could make a big tentacled friend for himself and the party, one tries to complete the ritual and open the gate (facepalm).
It came down to a straight initiative roll to determine whether the gate closer or gate opener was successful, and fortunately the closer won - by one pip.
(note for purists - the method of opening/closing the gate referred to here was something I wrote in, as nothing was detailed in the written module)
Lan-"KotS is one of those modules that has various very good bits to it but when taken as a whole really needs some help"-efan
Arnwolf666
Adventurer
Ok, there’re some things I consider wrong in this analysis:
First, difficulty is not directly related to Combat-as-Sport. That is, Combat-as-Sport is not (necessarily) easy mode. Difficult fights can be common, and in fact, one difficult fight at least occasionally is expected: the most famous boss fights.
Second, this was explained in the original post, but got a lot underestimated in further examples: terrain and strategy are very important in Combat-as-Sport. Slippery terrain plus a caldron filled with acid plus a trap hidden somewhere quickly spice things up and change tactics. No strategy is left untouched by the encounter with the enemy, it seems. What it doesn’t happen is for pre-battle strategy to be the defining factor: that is, the fight will never be a sure win nor a sure lost. Clever play at the fight always play the bigger role. In addition, the terrain often does not act as a one-sided advantage: both sides react to the terrain and can take advantage of it.
Third, I don’t know why the poll even states alchemist fire as a Combat-as-War thing. If you have something like that you sure can use in Combat-as-Sport.
Forth, the bee example is completely rigged. The Combat-as-Sport version is a fairly standard one, while the Combat-as-War version is much more detailed and receives much more attention. Needless, to say, this sort of stuff can really change the viewer’s perception.
Fifth, I honestly would like to see the well-developed definitions of Combat-as-Art and Combat-as-Drama, and the relationship between all these modes, but for my opinion, I’ll only consider the first two modes: Combat-as-War and Combat-as-Sport.
With that said, I prefer Combat-as-Sport. Battles are seen here as a fun activity in themselves. In Combat-as-War, the fight is often viewed as a medium to an end: the end goal is not to have a complex fight, but to win or fulfill an objective. In Combat-as-Sport, we want to have a good fight and a fun tactical moment. In my heart, I see every battle with a Blood Knight’s eyes, pretty much with the enthusiasm of a Shonen anime (if not the actual power level). Short and predictable fights are boring and not worth the trouble. Drama is also included: in the big fights, emotional attachment is expected here in my table – especially against the main villain. Anyway, that’s just me
First, difficulty is not directly related to Combat-as-Sport. That is, Combat-as-Sport is not (necessarily) easy mode. Difficult fights can be common, and in fact, one difficult fight at least occasionally is expected: the most famous boss fights.
Second, this was explained in the original post, but got a lot underestimated in further examples: terrain and strategy are very important in Combat-as-Sport. Slippery terrain plus a caldron filled with acid plus a trap hidden somewhere quickly spice things up and change tactics. No strategy is left untouched by the encounter with the enemy, it seems. What it doesn’t happen is for pre-battle strategy to be the defining factor: that is, the fight will never be a sure win nor a sure lost. Clever play at the fight always play the bigger role. In addition, the terrain often does not act as a one-sided advantage: both sides react to the terrain and can take advantage of it.
Third, I don’t know why the poll even states alchemist fire as a Combat-as-War thing. If you have something like that you sure can use in Combat-as-Sport.
Forth, the bee example is completely rigged. The Combat-as-Sport version is a fairly standard one, while the Combat-as-War version is much more detailed and receives much more attention. Needless, to say, this sort of stuff can really change the viewer’s perception.
Fifth, I honestly would like to see the well-developed definitions of Combat-as-Art and Combat-as-Drama, and the relationship between all these modes, but for my opinion, I’ll only consider the first two modes: Combat-as-War and Combat-as-Sport.
With that said, I prefer Combat-as-Sport. Battles are seen here as a fun activity in themselves. In Combat-as-War, the fight is often viewed as a medium to an end: the end goal is not to have a complex fight, but to win or fulfill an objective. In Combat-as-Sport, we want to have a good fight and a fun tactical moment. In my heart, I see every battle with a Blood Knight’s eyes, pretty much with the enthusiasm of a Shonen anime (if not the actual power level). Short and predictable fights are boring and not worth the trouble. Drama is also included: in the big fights, emotional attachment is expected here in my table – especially against the main villain. Anyway, that’s just me
