Do you prefer your character to be connected or unconnected to the adventure hook?

[Fenris-77]

I can see why someone might be interested in a video, but IMO even if it did exists it wouldn't be as helpful as one might think. The range of what the skill in question might look like is pretty vast given differences in various rules sets and the players at different tables. My personal GMing style is usually some version of PtFO, but it looks pretty different across games and groups. The other variable is, of course, me - different GMs have different styles and strengths and weaknesses, and their individual implementations of PtFO will differ, to some larger or smaller degree, on what their existing GMing style is. I put PtFO into practice based almost entirely on the written info in various PbTA games combined with some reflection on my personal style and how I thought it might work best. After that it was an iterative process of reflection and tweaking.

 

[Scott Christian]

I can tell you why, in my case. Because I have zero interest in presenting my leisure activity as a videoed teaching tool for you, or anyone else.

Pemerton, I wasn't singling you out. I asked in general if there were videos like this out there. There are none that I have found. I think that is because the rules do not lend themselves to the style of play several of you here use, the majority of players do not play that way, and the expectations of the game are not built around that style of play.
No video. That's cool. I respect you, your time and your players' time.

That hasn't happened to me.

Here is an account of our most recent Prince Valiant session. You can follow its links back through our sessions to the first one. (There are about 14 sessions, I think - with maybe 12 or so posts.)

You will see that there has been no switching to random encounters, and no pre-plotting. The campaign started in Kent. It is now in Cyprus. One of the first three PCs died in the first session. The other two, who began as a father-and-son knight of little skill and reputation, are now leaders of a holy military order which has travelled east on a crusade.

Most of the situations have been taken either directly, or via adaptation, from episodes in the rule book and the Episode Book.

Awesome. Sounds like a great game. And I enjoyed your recap. But, as I have said many times before, it does little to teach these techniques. But thank you for sharing.

 

[Aldarc]

When over 50 percent of people play D&D 5e and/or Pathfinder with little to no knowledge of games outside of that purview, I would say that arguing that "the majority of players do not play that way" is a fairly uncontroversial, if not banal, argument. Sure, the majority very likely don't play that way. But the point is NOT how do the majority of players play, but, rather, how do the minority of players play within this style of gaming DO. As to whether or not the expectations of play are built around that style of play, I would say that involves actually reading what the rules of play are for different games, and people have been patiently explaining how such play styles are built into other game systems.

 

[Ovinomancer]

The goal is to learn as you stated. And I do take your testimony at face value. But can you just acknowledge that to see something in practice is much much different than reading about it. I could read all I wanted to about a baseball pitcher's unique fastball, but until I see it in action, I might still not have a full understanding. The same is true for teaching. A teacher can talk about a technique all they want. But until another teacher sees it in use, it would be hard for them to apply. The same is true for surgery. That is why they have live viewings. The same is true for boxing, that is why they have hands-on coaches. The same is true business sales, that is why they have mentors. The same is true for mechanics. That is why they have shop bosses that demonstrate what to do ten times before letting them try it on their own.
All these people are trying to learn something. They need to be shown. This truth is even more pronounced when someone is explaining a technique that falls outside of the norm.

And, yet, RPGs come with a rulebook and no video guide.

I learned a completely different RPG style from reading here and buying, reading, and trying Blades in the Dark. I suppose I'm exceptional? I don't think so. I mean, for a long time I actually thought as you seem to and bounced off these approaches. Then I unplugged my computational unit from the nether orifice and tried to learn. It wasn't hard, even without a video, after I accepted it was a doable thing and worked to understand it. I then ported that learning back into 5e.

You point out surgeons learning a technique by observing, yet you flatly refuse to observe the technique when offerred because it's not your patient. You refuse to accept that the approach can be independant of the game. This is your problem to solve, and, as long as you continue to demand the perfect example before you try to learn, you're not even trying.

 

[Aldarc]

And, yet, RPGs come with a rulebook and no video guide.

Plus, the majority of videos about being a better GM or (more traditional) GMing techniques on YouTube "tell" and rarely if ever "show."

 

[Scott Christian]

And, yet, RPGs come with a rulebook and no video guide.

I learned a completely different RPG style from reading here and buying, reading, and trying Blades in the Dark. I suppose I'm exceptional? I don't think so. I mean, for a long time I actually thought as you seem to and bounced off these approaches. Then I unplugged my computational unit from the nether orifice and tried to learn. It wasn't hard, even without a video, after I accepted it was a doable thing and worked to understand it. I then ported that learning back into 5e.

You point out surgeons learning a technique by observing, yet you flatly refuse to observe the technique when offerred because it's not your patient. You refuse to accept that the approach can be independant of the game. This is your problem to solve, and, as long as you continue to demand the perfect example before you try to learn, you're not even trying.

No offense Ovinomancer, but I wish you would read what I wrote, in the tone that I wrote, instead of making up both meaning and tone.

I too learned without video. I too learned from reading other games. I too have implemented said rules for one game into another. I too have read and learned techniques from one game and brought them to another.
You bring up the surgeon analogy when I clearly stated ten others. And your take on the surgeon analogy is still incorrect. It is the patient who is different. One is operating on a human (D&D) and the other on a cat (Blades in the Dark). I could try to figure out how the surgery would work on a person, or the doctors could just perform the surgery on a human instead of a cat.
All that was in a snide tone. I chose this tone because I feel you are arguing for argument's sake.

Here is a different tone. One that I used earlier:
"The goal is to learn as you stated. And I do take your testimony at face value. But can you just acknowledge that to see something in practice is much much different than reading about it...All these people are trying to learn something. They need to be shown. This truth is even more pronounced when someone is explaining a technique that falls outside of the norm."
I am not being mean nor snide. I am being sincere. The fact that the video does not really exist makes these techniques rare, if not unfounded (although I have chosen to accept that they do based on these forum posts), in the realm of D&D. So me wanting to see how it was done is not being mean or hard-headed, it is me wanting to learn how this rare technique, one that falls between pre-plotted and random, coexists within the D&D ruleset.

 

[Ovinomancer]

No offense Ovinomancer, but I wish you would read what I wrote, in the tone that I wrote, instead of making up both meaning and tone.

I'm confused. Your response below is right in line with how I read and responded to you, absent the snide tone. Tone doesn't translate with text, so expecting others to pick up your tone is a nonstarter.

I too learned without video. I too learned from reading other games. I too have implemented said rules for one game into another. I too have read and learned techniques from one game and brought them to another.
You bring up the surgeon analogy when I clearly stated ten others. And your take on the surgeon analogy is still incorrect. It is the patient who is different. One is operating on a human (D&D) and the other on a cat (Blades in the Dark). I could try to figure out how the surgery would work on a person, or the doctors could just perform the surgery on a human instead of a cat.
All that was in a snide tone. I chose this tone because I feel you are arguing for argument's sake.

You complain I didn't address all of your examples, but that'sdoesn't counter my argument. It's like a gish gallop (look it up) where you throw a huge number of similar arguments and demand they all be addressed or none are. It's another nonstarter. I picked one, which is sufficient to the point.

Further to that point, surgeons do actually start learning with cats. My father taught human anatomy to pre-meds, and they dissect cats because there's plenty of simularities.

My point is that you can learn the technique from other sources and bring it into 5e.

Here is a different tone. One that I used earlier:
"The goal is to learn as you stated. And I do take your testimony at face value. But can you just acknowledge that to see something in practice is much much different than reading about it...All these people are trying to learn something. They need to be shown. This truth is even more pronounced when someone is explaining a technique that falls outside of the norm."
I am not being mean nor snide. I am being sincere. The fact that the video does not really exist makes these techniques rare, if not unfounded (although I have chosen to accept that they do based on these forum posts), in the realm of D&D. So me wanting to see how it was done is not being mean or hard-headed, it is me wanting to learn how this rare technique, one that falls between pre-plotted and random, coexists within the D&D ruleset.

It isn't mainstream, a point made by everyone responding to you. In the major market share game, when looking for video that's findable, you're most likely going to find mainstream play. I'm not going to look through all the video of play available on youtube to find one that showcases how I already play. This is akin to saying you believe four leaf clovers might exist, but you'll only accept evidence in the form of a live video picking one from the patch of grass right here. Eventually one might turn up, but you've so restricted the requirements that you can freely ignore the opposing arguments. This is a form of special pleading.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Everyone learns differently, so I can understand for the desire for a video instead of written rules or actual play posts in a forum.

I largely learned how to play Blades in the Dark by watching the series that @Campbell posted above....the Roll Play series with John Harper running the game over many sessions. I skimmed the book and then watched the videos and then read the book in full. Seeing the game in action really helped me with the context of the material presented in the book.

I think there are plenty of actual play examples that can be found that cover Blades as well as Apocalypse World or Burning Wheel or Mouse Guard or Dogs in the Vineyard or any other game that uses an approach that may be a bit different from the traditional approach largely established by D&D.

There are tons to pick from on youtube.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Everyone learns differently, so I can understand for the desire for a video instead of written rules or actual play posts in a forum.

I largely learned how to play Blades in the Dark by watching the series that @Campbell posted above....the Roll Play series with John Harper running the game over many sessions. I skimmed the book and then watched the videos and then read the book in full. Seeing the game in action really helped me with the context of the material presented in the book.

I think there are plenty of actual play examples that can be found that cover Blades as well as Apocalypse World or Burning Wheel or Mouse Guard or Dogs in the Vineyard or any other game that uses an approach that may be a bit different from the traditional approach largely established by D&D.

There are tons to pick from on youtube.

Yes, but these are not from the required patch of grass.

 

[Scott Christian]

I'm confused. Your response below is right in line with how I read and responded to you, absent the snide tone. Tone doesn't translate with text, so expecting others to pick up your tone is a nonstarter.

Are you saying tone can't be read through text? Maybe the emojis help.

You complain I didn't address all of your examples, but that'sdoesn't counter my argument. It's like a gish gallop (look it up) where you throw a huge number of similar arguments and demand they all be addressed or none are. It's another nonstarter. I picked one, which is sufficient to the point.

Further to that point, surgeons do actually start learning with cats. My father taught human anatomy to pre-meds, and they dissect cats because there's plenty of simularities.

My point is that you can learn the technique from other sources and bring it into 5e.

There are enough fallacies out there that every single argument can fall under the definition of a fallacy. Even ones that are true. Pointing them out doesn't make the argument any stronger. Pointing out different facts, ones that pertain more to the subject, or have more ethos, makes arguments stronger. And for the record, I have one request. One. Not ten. Not five. One. I asked for a video. I used those analogies because it is overwhelming proof that learning visually is easier for most people. That's why people use YouTube to learn how to repair something instead of reading the manual and figuring it out. My premise was, can't we just agree that it's easier if you see it? But apparently, you have to argue over that too.
And you are right surgeons can learn with cats. So fill in the blank. Then they move to _____________________. That's right, cadavers. Then they move to watching surgeries on people. See how people is step one and two. Sorry I wanted to skip the cat step.

It isn't mainstream, a point made by everyone responding to you. In the major market share game, when looking for video that's findable, you're most likely going to find mainstream play. I'm not going to look through all the video of play available on youtube to find one that showcases how I already play. This is akin to saying you believe four leaf clovers might exist, but you'll only accept evidence in the form of a live video picking one from the patch of grass right here. Eventually one might turn up, but you've so restricted the requirements that you can freely ignore the opposing arguments. This is a form of special pleading.

You are right, this style of play is not mainstream. In fact, I can't find it all. Others have not stated as much. The "give an inch they'll take a mile" mantra is incredibly strong here. Maybe people are defensive for a reason. I don't know.
Also, I didn't ask you or anyone else to do a personal search. I asked the forum to show one. I am not asking them to search. I assume if they play this way, they might be more inclined to know others that play this way. That means, they might be more inclined to know of a video being played that way. I am not asking them to research, I am asking if they know of one, then post.
And to your bold text, show me where I have argued. I have stated three or four times I want to learn - not argue. I even said: "I AM NOT TRYING TO ARGUE." How these words are not clear to you and you insist on trying to show how clever you are by pointing out esoteric fallacies is beyond me. Because you seem intelligent. But maybe you just like to use that intelligence to stir up drama.
It is apparent to me, you just like to argue. Maybe devil's advocate is your thing. If so. Cool. Have fun.