Do you stop at a certain level? Sweetspot?

[Enkhidu]

I see this question arise every month or so around here and it points to a deep problem in D&D. The game is ostensibly designed for 20 levels, but people invariably stop short of that level when playing. There is something deeply wrong with the rules of the game when people stop playing short of the implied end of the power curve.

I'm not sure if this is an indicator of a "deep problem" with the system. I instead attribute it to two factors: 1st/2nd Ed inertia, and accelerated level gain.

If you're a grognard, go back over your AD&D material. A couple things will likely jump out at you: "name" level (that level at which a PC begins experiencing diminishing returns for advancement in the form of fewer hp) and the relatively low assumed level of the "superheroes" of the settings (example, GDQ, in which the PCs of level 8-12 up to 10-14 fight giants, dragons, ancient races, demons, and a demon goddess on her home turf - this is epic adventure!). And while a handful of adventures were released with higher levels in mind (Isle of the Ape, anyone?), most of the top tier adventures ran somewhere between 10th and 14th. This speaks of an accepted power curve that did not reach the top end of the spell spectrum.

Now don't get me wrong: there were some abberations. FR was responsible for many of them, in the form of overly high level NPCs, but they also cropped up in Dark Sun, in Spelljammer, in Planescape (though I'd argue that if anyplace needed those abberations, it was the last). But by and large you saw a power curve that ended with name level, or soon afterward (like 13th, the level which fighters got hit with their # of attacks cap).

Fast forward to 3E: levels past "name" now provide very tangible benefits all the way up to 20. The experience point system encourages quick advancement. And Prestige Classes, whicb provide new and exciting abilities, provide even more incentive to continue quick advancement at higher levels. Suddenly the power curve ramps up, as the top tier becomes more attractive and more accessible. Is it any wonder that more campaigns chart to level 20 and beyond?

Truthfully, I think that if you wanted to "fix" a problem like this, you'd be best served by reducing the advancement rate. While the incentive to progress would still exist, making it take longer would allow campaigns to wrap up at lower levels and serve as a (more effective) cap.

 

[Maldin]

Any perceived "sweet spot" is merely a reflection of the DM's and players' preferences (mainly), knowledge, and abilities. We have PCs from 1st to 22+ and I've run NPCs from 0th to 29th, and the players have no problem staying interested and I have no problem challenging them at all levels. You DO have to think differently, though. While at the high levels, they often do off-world stuff (Spelljammer, Planescape), there are certainly still alot of "on-world" adventures those guys are doing as well, so simply saying "take it to the Planes" is not the only answer for high level.

If you've never tried x-level.... give it a go. Your group may like it. The only word of advice is "be prepared, but be flexible".

Denis, aka "Maldin"
================================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com/
Check out the ton of edition-independent material on my website!

 

[howandwhy99]

The reason it runs out:

The problem is the nature of the world. To keep a world believable, the power levels increase in rarity as you go up.

Typically the party is never set back in their experience gain, and generally the death of a character is somthing that many DMs try to avoid.

Even if a character does die, he is replaced by a character of equal or near equal level.

Homoginised party level = homoginised challenges.

I have found that there is really only one cure for this problem:
RAT BASTARD DMING.
Well, not that bad. But I have found a "dice land where they may/restart at first level/there are places that are too dangerous for you to go" attitude to be wonderful in fixing the problem of players getting too high a level too fast.

Here is my logic-

The numbers as the Good Col and Co put them together were done so with attrition in mind. Just go read some of the stuff about the early games.

When you have a level of character attrition, with new characters starting at 1 you get a more mixed party. Now, it is assumed that the party will get loot and be somewhat successful. So what happend when you have a level 1 character running around with three other 7-10 level characters?

The 3.5 xp system helps them to level faster in the presence of greatness. Also, those 7-10ers probably have some hand me downs that they can give to the new character to increase the chance that 1) the character can do more damage and 2) the character will survive.

If the DM runs as status quo, then the party should regularly run into opponents that are good for the first level guy to fight and wont be barred from participation.

This is really counter intuitive, but it really works.

Think the fight at Balin's Tomb in LotR and the encounter with the Balrog on the bridge. Gandalf is this immensely powerful being so the DM throws in a balrog, but the other more mid and lower characters need somthing to fight also so he throws in a Troll and a bunch of orcs.

Not much to say other than... I think you're spot on with everything mentioned here.

 

[Belen]

I usually will not move beyond 12th level these days. My favorite levels to DM/play are 1-5. I think anything past 12th is just an exercise in fantasy supers.

 

[Belen]

I'm not sure if this is an indicator of a "deep problem" with the system. I instead attribute it to two factors: 1st/2nd Ed inertia, and accelerated level gain.

I think it does indicate a deep problem. The game stays linear in the early levels. Each levels increases capability, but not dramatically. However, once players have access to 5-6 level spells, the power rate grows exponentially. This is a problem. Such a massive jump in effectiveness tends to make things just a bit more difficult on the DM and I have found that a lot of players cannot keep track of all the various bonus', spell effects, class abilities etc.

You get to a point where a simple antimagic field cause a hour long effort by people to modify the characters!

I think that the upper levels need serious reorganization.