Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

[Mulkhoran]

In my book, the ability to decide on the fly whether a couple fireballs or a couple dispel magics are needed, the ability to cast that dispel magic silent when you are silenced, but normal if not, the ability to cast any one spell among your spells known as often as you have slots free is tactical flexibility.
IMO, the ability to choose from a great range of spells when preparing is strategic flexibility, the ability to cast on the fly is tactical flexibility.
I have yet to see the mage who, without some rod of metamagic, can throw 4 to 5 silent dispel magics in a round, or 4 to 5 silent still dispel magics when needed.
My bard can blow all her slots on healing when needed, or on buffs, or beef up her performance after a day without battle. My sorcerer can cast dispel magic until it works, or cast fireball as long as foes vulnerable to it are on the battlefield, or cast a couple wall of force.
That is flexibility for me, the ability to spend your slots as the situation demands it, even going to the extreme of using up all your slots for magic missile if that is the only thing that works, and the situation demands it.

All I can say here is that I have NO idea what all that still, silent 4 to 5 times a round stuff you're talking about means. Sorcerers use metamagic feats like everyone else, only it takes a full round. But maybe that's not what you're referring to, I just can't tell.

You're welcome to your definition of flexibility. I'm just pointing out that sorcerers get very few spells known, and if your spells known are no good in situation X, then you're no good.

 

[Mulkhoran]

But a slightly shorter duration does not negate the fact that they do the same thing. With haste in effect, combats do not last nearly as long. If you need more than 5 rounds of haste at a time, you can always reactivate with your last partial action. It's not like you are suddenly worse with a short duration haste that you would have been without haste at all.

-Fletch!

You're not worse, but you're making this a binary argument. "Haste/No Haste", duration irrelevant. I'm saying that duration is one of many relevant factors in the greater scheme of gameplay.

You appear to be saying that duration is not relevant to evaluating Haste's power. I disagree, in the gameplay context mentioned above.

 

[AuraSeer]

You obviously have not done the math. Do you realize that even a half-charged wand of slow is more than the entire equipment value for a 6th level NPC.

That's a strawman argument. A wand is not the only way to cast Slow. (A scroll of it only costs 375 gp. Memorizing the spell is free.)

And you're still missing the point.

D&D tactics work like rock/paper/scissors. For every tactic there is a counter, and for every counter there is an anti-counter.

If you never use Paper, you will always lose to Rock. This does not mean that Rock is overpowered.

 

[Tzarevitch]

My problem with Haste is that it makes no sense when compared to any of the feats that allow you to cast a second spell (such as Quicken spell.

Quickening a spell requires a slot 4 levels above the spell's normal level. This means that you require a 4th level slot to quicken a cantrip or an orison. Yet, using the Haste spell you can effectively Qucken a spell of ANY level EACH round for 1 round/caster level. Effectively it is a 3rd level spell that allows you a free Quicken Spell feat use at no cost (save the one 3rd level spell slot) with no restrictions. Admittedly, you are sacrificing two spell slots (one for the Haste and one for the other spell) but that is only for the first round and that 3rd level slot you sacrifice is far lower than any slot you could sacrifice to Quicken any spell normally.

Quicken Spell on the other hand is a costly metamagic feat. Presumably that cost exists for game balance purposes otherwise why have a cost at all? That game balance however gets broken by the Haste spell. Quicken costs you one of your precious feat slots permanently AND requires a very high spell slot to even use. You can effectively Quicken a spell at far lower cost (1 3rd level slot and effectively free quickens on succeeding rounds as long as the spell lasts, whereas you'd have to sacrifice a 4th lvl slot MINIMUM EACH ROUND to so much as quicken a cantrip) just by using the Haste spell. What then is the point of the Quicken Spell feat when Haste does the same thing but cheaper and easier? Admittedly, you could do both, but why bother when Quicken is so expensive and Haste so cheap.

The second reason that I think Haste as written was poorly thought out is that it is not an equal opportunity benefit to everyone. Take for example a high level fighter w/ 4 attacks. Haste grants that fighter 1 more partial action which at best is a +25% increase in damage (equalling another attack similar to one of the four he already has.) For a spellcaster, haste is always a 100% increase in damage potential regardless of caster level or spell level for 1 round/lvl at no extra cost other than the single 3rd level slot.

This more than anything else is why in my campaign I have a hard rule the partial action that haste grants can only be used for movement or for a physical attack. I also sped up Sorcerer's metamagic so that it takes a move equivalent action to use a metamagic feat and a standard action to cast the spell (instead of a full round action to complete the metamagic and the spell). This then allows sorcerers to use the Quicken Spell feat normally.

Tzarevitch

 

[Mulkhoran]

The second reason that I think Haste as written was poorly thought out is that it is not an equal opportunity benefit to everyone. Take for example a high level fighter w/ 4 attacks. Haste grants that fighter 1 more partial action which at best is a +25% increase in damage (equalling another attack similar to one of the four he already has.) For a spellcaster, haste is always a 100% increase in damage potential regardless of caster level or spell level for 1 round/lvl at no extra cost other than the single 3rd level slot.

Tzarevitch

Unless that particular wizard happens to have Quicken Spell, and can cast 2 spells during his regular action. Then you've only given him a +50% increase in damage capacity. Right?

An extra partial action is an extra partial action. It doesn't vary in value because of class features.

 

[mkletch]

You appear to be saying that duration is not relevant to evaluating Haste's power. I disagree, in the gameplay context mentioned above.

Duration is one factor of many. The primary issue here is the actual effect/result that you get for the duration.

That's a strawman argument. A wand is not the only way to cast Slow. (A scroll of it only costs 375 gp. Memorizing the spell is free.)

That's still a big chunk of change for any NPC under 7th or 8th level. Plus, I have no desire to make a 'standard NPC bag of tricks' that I list under the equipment of every NPC. If I did, and it seems that you do, one or more scrolls of slow are right there at the top of the list. I prefer NPCs to be more interesting than a sequence of counters to the NPCs; that's pretty flat.

D&D tactics work like rock/paper/scissors. For every tactic there is a counter, and for every counter there is an anti-counter.

If you never use Paper, you will always lose to Rock. This does not mean that Rock is overpowered.

Good analogy. The adventurers, with their superior equipment and ability to focus all of it on each encounter in turn, effectively applies rock, paper and scissors to every encounter. Haste allows them to do it twice as fast. The NPCs typically have but one; rock, paper or scissors. NPCs have to be less powerful because the players grab all of their stuff in a Diablo-esque frenzy. So unless you want the power curve to be distorted even more, the NPC has to generalize against all threats.

Yes, there are counters, but the game is more complicated and interesting than the place that this argument would lead you.

-Fletch!

 

[mkletch]

Unless that particular wizard happens to have Quicken Spell, and can cast 2 spells during his regular action. Then you've only given him a +50% increase in damage capacity. Right?

An extra partial action is an extra partial action. It doesn't vary in value because of class features.

Oh my god, you've got to be kidding!!!! HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!

You get one action per round, typically one spell for a spellcaster. If you haste, then it is two. That would be a doubling or a 100% increase.

This thread is TOAST!

-Fletch!

 

[Mulkhoran]

Duration is one factor of many. The primary issue here is the actual effect/result that you get for the duration.

-Fletch!

Well, that might wrap it up for you and me, then, since I completely disagree on that being the PRIMARY issue. I think all the factors have more equal weight. Any spell must be evaluated in the full context of the game.

But we can agree to disagree, which is certainly civilized. Or keep debating. I'm game for either.

 

[Storm Raven]

The second reason that I think Haste as written was poorly thought out is that it is not an equal opportunity benefit to everyone.

And a +5 Bastard Sword is not an equal benefit to a wizard as it is to a fighter. Some things benefit some characters more than others. This is the way the game works. Your "objection" has no merit.

 

[Storm Raven]

Good analogy. The adventurers, with their superior equipment and ability to focus all of it on each encounter in turn, effectively applies rock, paper and scissors to every encounter. Haste allows them to do it twice as fast. The NPCs typically have but one; rock, paper or scissors. NPCs have to be less powerful because the players grab all of their stuff in a Diablo-esque frenzy. So unless you want the power curve to be distorted even more, the NPC has to generalize against all threats.

Of course, a logical DM will frequently provide little or no "stuff" to grab, as NPCs use one use items (like scrolls and potions), or temporary effects, or items with powers not particularly attractive to many PCs (such as Unholy weapons) to boost their power.