Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

[Celtavian]

Re

I can understand both sides of the argument, but I still tend to think haste is not overpowered. I am glad they finally gave casters a spell to help them unleash magic at a faster rate.

Personally, I feel wizards should stand heads and tails above the other classes in overall power, just as they do in most fantasy books. They should only be thwarted on the rare occasions they face an extremely magic resistant creature such as a golem, dragon, or some epic monster. Magic is and should be superior in all ways save giving and receiving melee damage.

Also, the argument that haste is a must have spell is very weak. I can think of several other spells that are must have spells such as the following:

Magic Missile
Shield
See Invisibility
Fireball or Lightning Bolt
Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel
Disintegrate
Teleport or Teleport no Error

The above spells you will find on the spell list of about 95% or higher of all wizards and sorcerers. They are spells that stand out for their level in both usefulness and damaging capability.

I might buy into the argument that haste should be a higher level spell if it were not so easy to defeat. A simple lvl 3 slow spell automatically dispels haste on multiple targets. A dispel magic also counters haste. Spells such as hold person or monster, charm person or monster, and dominate person or monster can effectively eliminate haste or turn it against the party. Also, Minor Globe of Invulnerability renders haste useless when within its confines. An anti-magic field also renders haste inactive. Even the spell mass haste can be easily defeated by the 3rd level slow spell.

Enemy arcane casters or enemies period should always have access to haste or haste counter measures. Anyone who studies real world combat can comprehend that combat is often a redundant activity requiring the same weapons and equipment each and every battle with only slight variation depending on circumstance. I liken haste to the assault rifle or grenade of a soldier or in fantasy terms, the sword and armor of a fighter. It is standard issue and everytime you face a wizard of any power, you can expect they will utilize haste.

An army of any power should have access to haste considering its value on the combat field. Haste potions are fairly easy to create and high level NPC's or elite units should have little trouble obtaining haste potions for use against the PC's. And considering how common haste would be, the slow spell, the countermeasure for haste, should be just as readily available to enemy casters.

Basically, if haste is the must have spell, then the countermeasure is a must have spell as well. Woe to the unprepared caster who does not have that slow or dispel magic spell ready to counter an enemies haste, whether they be PC or NPC.

The only good argument for haste being overpowered is one of personal style. Some people prefer low magic campaigns where the arcane casters can't unleash a barrage of powerful magic to destroy their enemies. This I can understand. If a person wants a world where magic doesn't allow arcane casters an immense advantage, then haste is definitely one of those spells that could be considered overpowered. It definitely gives an arcane caster an immense advantage over any other class who cannot counter or equal the effects of haste.


P.S.: The only spell I would really like to see an official fix for is the harm spell. Harm is vastly overpowered as it is currently written. Harm is the only truly imbalanced, overpowered spell in the game.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I thought of an interesting Haste variant, which is discussed in this thread http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29151

The basics:

Benefits: Your increased speed give you +4 to AC, +4 to reflex saving throws, +4 to attack and double normal movement speed.

You don't recieve any extra actions in the round, nor can you cast extra spells.

Everything else is like the current spell.

This would be less powerful for casters (don't get to use two spells per round) and less powerful for fighting types (don't get to move into position and unleash a full attack), and extends the idea of the "haste" bonus to AC into two other areas... both ones where the fact that the rest of the world is in slightly slow motion works to your advantage.

Cheers

 

[Ricochet]

My biggest gripe with Haste, is that it becomes SO powerfull with higher-level characters..

To remedy this, I plan to implement the following restrictions:

Area of Effect: Personal (this secures only sorcerers and wizards can cast it)

Effect: Ability to cast one extra spell per round, which must be maximum of 3rd level (can also be used to activate a magic item or use a scroll/potion) Furthermore, the caster gains + 4 AC (dodge bonus) for the duration of the spell.

If you need to dampen it further, make it a normal cast spell (not free action), and don't let the effects set in before the following round.

 

[WizarDru]

Re: Re

Personally, I feel wizards should stand heads and tails above the other classes in overall power, just as they do in most fantasy books.

Well, I don't think this is a purely 'caster vs. melee' thread, quite honestly. I also think you need to broaden your selection of reading material, as I can think of plenty of fantasy novels where the mages DO NOT outshine the non-casting classes, but that's really neither here nor there, when we're discussing the mechanics of a spell in a game.

Also, the argument that haste is a must have spell is very weak. I can think of several other spells that are must have spells such as the following:

Magic Missile
Shield
See Invisibility
Fireball or Lightning Bolt
Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel
Disintegrate
Teleport or Teleport no Error

The above spells you will find on the spell list of about 95% or higher of all wizards and sorcerers. They are spells that stand out for their level in both usefulness and damaging capability.

I would certainly disagree that 95% of sorcerors take See Invisibility. Glitterdust is much more utilitarian for their limited known spells, and the same level. Of the spells you've listed, only three are the same level as haste, and your average sorceror will memorize two of them, and haste. I have never seen a caster yet under 3e that doesn't take it.

However, that has nothing to do with it's balance issue. None of the spells listed above are unbalanced, IMHO, but all are essentials to an arcane caster's list and well-being. In the same vein, claiming that haste is easily dealt with by casting slow ignores the issue of it's balance, as well. Heal can be cast to counteract the effects of Harm, but you clearly see a problem with that. This doesn't mean that I'm equating the two...they're separate spells with separate issues. But the argument that it's easily countered isn't as relevant (note that I didn't say it was irrelevant) as other factors.

Basically, if haste is the must have spell, then the countermeasure is a must have spell as well. Woe to the unprepared caster who does not have that slow or dispel magic spell ready to counter an enemies haste, whether they be PC or NPC.

But therein lies the rub, and the crux of the problem. Taking from the list above: Fireball, Shield, Magic Missle, Lightning Bolt, the Dispels, the Teleports and Disintigrate...with one exception, all of them are fire and forget spells; three of the spells are just damage dealers. The nature of the battle is not changed. The nature of haste is such that it creates a detente of haste have and have-nots, as you essentially describe it. Ignoring the breakdown in verisimilitude that following such a line of thinking might create, the issue rapidly becomes one of altering some (perhaps all) encounters to factor haste in. This is not done nearly as often with spells such as magic missle, fireball, distintigrate, finger of death or many other stand-by spells.

Does this make haste broken?
I don't know.

It certainly is strong, but so are several other spells at 3rd level (as opposed to the wasteland of arcane's 2nd).

I think a major issue that was pointed out earlier, and more relevant than magic level of a campaign, is frequency of encounters. In a game where the mage is only expecting two encounters a day, the mass haste will fly ASAP. In a game where there may be six battles in a day, haste will no fly out of the box until needed. That seems to be a much more important factor.

 

[mkletch]

I agree. There isn't a player in my campaign who doesn't have those blasted things. In fact, I've lowered the price and made them readily avalible to anyone who can pay. This means that anyone with the least bit of money or investment in moving quickly will have them. About a third of the people in cities are moving at 60 ft per round and don't bother with horses (you have to fead, water, and house those things) when outside. The boots are a better investment.

I then doubled the cost of Horseshoes of Speed. Seeing as speed means less at 60 ft, horses going at double are that much more important. It's a tricky market out there.

My lance weilding, horse riding Fighter hates me for it. I think I'm doing something right.

That's a tad unfair. Anyone can run as fast as a horse because of simple magic, but a horse cannot? No wonder he's unhappy.

As for regular boots, if you take out the jump bonus, the cost is only 2kgp.

-Fletch!

 

[mkletch]

Re: Re

Personally, I feel wizards should stand heads and tails above the other classes in overall power, just as they do in most fantasy books. They should only be thwarted on the rare occasions they face an extremely magic resistant creature such as a golem, dragon, or some epic monster. Magic is and should be superior in all ways save giving and receiving melee damage.

So you should have a group composed of only arcane spellcasters. Then that group gets swarmed by many melee monsters and has to TP out. So, you DO need fighters, but they are second-class citizens; not a terribly fun game to play if you are stuck with a fighter. One of the better features of 3E is how relatively balanced the various classes are. Now, I'm no stickler for balance, but having everything approximately the same makes the game interesting.

What works for a book, computer game or a movie does not necessarily make an interesting pen and paper roleplaying game. You have to target your game system to a slightly different audience. Yeah, high magic in a novel is cool, but Elminster as presented in FRCS does not even begin to approach how he is presented in FR novels. If you expect characters in 3E to do the same things as those in books, your game will be broken.

Also, the argument that haste is a must have spell is very weak. I can think of several other spells that are must have spells such as the following:

Magic Missile
Shield
See Invisibility
Fireball or Lightning Bolt
Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel
Disintegrate
Teleport or Teleport no Error

The above spells you will find on the spell list of about 95% or higher of all wizards and sorcerers. They are spells that stand out for their level in both usefulness and damaging capability.

Yes, and the must have spells, through their simplistic, flat and predictable use, take something away from the game. Now, I hardly rate See Invis as overpowered or lame, but all of the others have either balance, flavor or creativity issues.

I might buy into the argument that haste should be a higher level spell if it were not so easy to defeat. A simple lvl 3 slow spell automatically dispels haste on multiple targets. [...]

Enemy arcane casters or enemies period should always have access to haste or haste counter measures. [...] It is standard issue and everytime you face a wizard of any power, you can expect they will utilize haste.

An army of any power should have access to haste considering its value on the combat field. [...]

Basically, if haste is the must have spell, then the countermeasure is a must have spell as well. Woe to the unprepared caster who does not have that slow or dispel magic spell ready to counter an enemies haste, whether they be PC or NPC.

This assumes a world where every encounter will have arcane spellcasters or potions galore, always employing the same spells and tactics. What a flat, boring, predictable state of affairs. Other similar issues have been brought up on these boards (like the scry-buff-teleport cheese) which theoretically have 'counters', but in practice only make for a boring campaign.

The only good argument for haste being overpowered is one of personal style. Some people prefer low magic campaigns where the arcane casters can't unleash a barrage of powerful magic to destroy their enemies. This I can understand. If a person wants a world where magic doesn't allow arcane casters an immense advantage, then haste is definitely one of those spells that could be considered overpowered. It definitely gives an arcane caster an immense advantage over any other class who cannot counter or equal the effects of haste.

The problem is not just spellcasters. As long as haste is 3rd level, it is available in potions, and therefore to anybody. As long as it is 4th, it is available to arcane casters and anybody with UMD. As long as it is low level, it is available as a magic item for relatively low cost unless you arbitrarily up the cost, thereby acknowledging that something is "wrong" with haste.

P.S.: The only spell I would really like to see an official fix for is the harm spell. Harm is vastly overpowered as it is currently written. Harm is the only truly imbalanced, overpowered spell in the game.

By your previous arguments, Harm should be OK no matter how it is written, becasue the ;enemy should have easy and frequent access to it.

-Fletch!

 

[Tzarevitch]

The funny thing that gets overlooked when people claim that Haste is not unbalanced is what happens when a cleric can cast the spell (I think it comes in the Time domain). As unbalanced as it is for wizards it becomes horrifying with a high level cleric. The cleric can cast a hasted Harm on you, then hit you with a weapon (or a touch spell with no save) and kill you without you getting a chance to respond.

Note also that under normal circumstances, a non-epic caster CANNOT quicken a Harm spell, yet Haste - a mere 3rd level spell - lets you effectively do so theoretically for a round per level (or until your 6th and higher level spells run out).

(Can anyone tell that Harm is the other busted spell that I crusade against?)

Tzarevitch

 

[Tzarevitch]

Try a few extended encounterrs along with multiple encounters over the course of a day. I've found that both of these really limit the use of Haste, as it's greatest drawback is lousy duration

So in order to balance the spell, the Wizard must be attacked regularly so that the duration becomes an issue? You are arguing that a constant general drain on the PC's total resources serves as a balance to the use of that particular overpowered spell. Yes it is a balance in the sense that eventually the PC will run out of spells, but if you keep attacking him he will run out of everything (including hit points). That is neither realistic nor particularly fun. Why should all the legions of evil have to gang up on a single PC just to make a single spell balanced?

Also, 1 round/lvl is not a real drawback because you are still only giving up a single 3rd level slot no matter how many rounds the spell lasts. That single slot then lets you effectively cast two spells each round for 1 round/lvl. Compare this to Quicken Spell, which forces you to burn a 4th level slot just to quicken a single cantrip.

Tzarevitch

 

[Tzarevitch]

Unless, of course, said fighter has to move. Haste allows him to move and still take a full attack action, which gives him a +300% increase in damage.

That is not an increase in damage. A PCs full attack rate IS his normal 100% damage in a single round. Haste and move merely allows him to move and still maintain his normal 100%.

Tzarevitch

 

[Shard O'Glase]

So in order to balance the spell, the Wizard must be attacked regularly so that the duration becomes an issue? You are arguing that a constant general drain on the PC's total resources serves as a balance to the use of that particular overpowered spell. Yes it is a balance in the sense that eventually the PC will run out of spells, but if you keep attacking him he will run out of everything (including hit points). That is neither realistic nor particularly fun. Why should all the legions of evil have to gang up on a single PC just to make a single spell balanced?

Also, 1 round/lvl is not a real drawback because you are still only giving up a single 3rd level slot no matter how many rounds the spell lasts. That single slot then lets you effectively cast two spells each round for 1 round/lvl. Compare this to Quicken Spell, which forces you to burn a 4th level slot just to quicken a single cantrip.

Tzarevitch

No to balance spellcasters in general you need multiple encounters. Haste isn't the issue, lack of encounters and letting the mage let loose with no consequences is. If you have 1-2 encoutners a day and the spellcasters don't compeltely dominate your games at mid-high levels even without haste, your spellcasters are doing something massively wrong. With haste it just gets worse because they can better cpaitalize upon there ability to let loose in a short period of time.

If the game is run in the way the classes were balanced(multiple encouners per day) then both spellcasters in general and haste in particular don't come out of whack.