Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

  • Yes, something should be done to curb it's power.

    Votes: 149 47.8%
  • No, we use it as is, and it's just fine.

    Votes: 163 52.2%

Shard O'Glase said:


No to balance spellcasters in general you need multiple encounters. Haste isn't the issue, lack of encounters and letting the mage let loose with no consequences is. If you have 1-2 encoutners a day and the spellcasters don't compeltely dominate your games at mid-high levels even without haste, your spellcasters are doing something massively wrong. With haste it just gets worse because they can better cpaitalize upon there ability to let loose in a short period of time.

If the game is run in the way the classes were balanced(multiple encouners per day) then both spellcasters in general and haste in particular don't come out of whack.

Agreed.

It is an often overlooked that if you don't have multiple encounters per day the spellcasters clean up.

In general, any character that can spent resources to boost effectiveness for a short period looks much better with fewer combats in the day. PsyWarriors (and sometimes Clerics) will outperform Fighters when the pace is gentle. Wizards will outperform archers.

In the extreme case, wizards will outperform sorcerors. There is no advantage to playing a sorceror in a campaign where the wizard never runs out of spells.
 

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Re

Well, I don't think this is a purely 'caster vs. melee' thread, quite honestly. I also think you need to broaden your selection of reading material, as I can think of plenty of fantasy novels where the mages DO NOT outshine the non-casting classes, but that's really neither here nor there, when we're discussing the mechanics of a spell in a game.

I said most fantasy books, not all. I would say about 90% of fantasy stories portray wizards as the most powerful character, even if they are not the main character.

I would certainly disagree that 95% of sorcerors take See Invisibility. Glitterdust is much more utilitarian for their limited known spells, and the same level. Of the spells you've listed, only three are the same level as haste, and your average sorceror will memorize two of them, and haste. I have never seen a caster yet under 3e that doesn't take it.

I feel see invisibility is more utilitarian because it allows one to see astral and ethereal beings. Glitterdust is not effective against such creatures and has a smaller range. Glitterdust is better for assisting other members of the party though.

Just because you have not seen a caster without haste, does not mean it cannot be done. A caster could just as easily substitute slow for haste and use it as a countermeasure and a utility spell to help his party. As has been stated here numerous times, slow automatically (no check required) dispels haste on multiple targets.

An arcane caster can get by without the haste spell by taking the slow spell. This is not even open for debate.

Haste is always taken just like magic missile and disintegrate are always taken. They are fun spells to cast and much better than any alternative at a given level. So the fact that 99.9% of arcane casters take haste does not make it imbalanced.



However, that has nothing to do with it's balance issue. None of the spells listed above are unbalanced, IMHO, but all are essentials to an arcane caster's list and well-being. In the same vein, claiming that haste is easily dealt with by casting slow ignores the issue of it's balance, as well. Heal can be cast to counteract the effects of Harm, but you clearly see a problem with that. This doesn't mean that I'm equating the two...they're separate spells with separate issues. But the argument that it's easily countered isn't as relevant (note that I didn't say it was irrelevant) as other factors.

Actually, Harm and haste are not equivalent. You cannot dispel a harm. You cannot defend against a harm at all. A harm gives no saving throw and if you bypass spell resistance, you could do as much damage as the creature has hit points even if it is 2,000 hit points or more.

Now, think about this, haste is only as good as the spells or weapons you can use in conjunction with it. On your best day, you would never be able to do the damage harm does even while hasted. At best you could throw a couple of death spells and hope the opponent fails their save.

Haste basically allows an arcane caster to unleash powerful damaging or deadly spells at a faster rate. That is the big complaint of those who want to see haste changed. It accelerates combats.

If there were no great spells to use in conjunction with haste, then no one would be complaining. An extra melee attack is easily tolerable for a third level spell to most, it is the extra spell attack that bothers most DM's.

This is why I see haste as balanced. It gives an extra partial action and +4 AC. If all anyone could ever cast was 3rd level spells, this spell would not be an issue. The spell itself becomes no more or less powerful than it has ever been. The problem is that the arcane caster gains access to higher level spells that are more powerful.

These higher level spells when used in conjunction with haste make haste seem more powerful than it is when the spell itself has not changed. All that has gone up is its duration, which is the same for any spell.

Those who state haste is overpowered are really stating that the magic system is overpowered. It doesn't matter if haste is lvl 3 or lvl 9, they will feel that giving an arcane caster an extra partial action is imbalancing.

An extra partial action will always allow an arcane caster to do some serious damage no matter what level the spell.

Which brings me back to my original assertion, haste is only imbalanced if one does not like a high magic style of play where arcane casters have a serious advantage over their opponents. Haste is a spell that gives a serious advantage.

At the same time, the spell itself neither increases nor decreases in power. Haste becomes more powerful only because the caster becomes more powerful. This a balance issue with the overall magic system and not just haste.

Makes me wonder what those people against haste are going to do the first time someone uses Time Stop spell.


But therein lies the rub, and the crux of the problem. Taking from the list above: Fireball, Shield, Magic Missle, Lightning Bolt, the Dispels, the Teleports and Disintigrate...with one exception, all of them are fire and forget spells; three of the spells are just damage dealers. The nature of the battle is not changed. The nature of haste is such that it creates a detente of haste have and have-nots, as you essentially describe it. Ignoring the breakdown in verisimilitude that following such a line of thinking might create, the issue rapidly becomes one of altering some (perhaps all) encounters to factor haste in. This is not done nearly as often with spells such as magic missle, fireball, distintigrate, finger of death or many other stand-by spells.

I seriously disagree with the assertion that the above spells are not factored into the battle plan of any war leader worth a damn. A single fireball can seriously disrupt ones tactical plans. A disintegrate can easily kill your most powerful mage. Teleport allows the enemy to escape. What mage doesn't factor in magic missile? Most magi take the shield spell to counter magic missile, especially for mage duels. Magic missle is a dangerous spell to arcane casters with their low hit points.

I would say everyone of these spells and most death effect spells are factored into the combat plans of any worthy war leader. For them not to factor such spells is to invite destruction upon them and their army.

If all these other spells must be prepared for, I see no reason why haste should not also be prepared for. What is wrong with an arcane caster having to take slow as well as Protection from Elements and Death Ward? I see absolutely nothing wrong with factoring haste into most encounters the same as I can expect to get hit by fireballs and lightning bolts by arcane casters.



Mkletch,

Your entire post supports the assertion that haste is imbalanced because of conflicts with personal preference rather than innate spell power. Haste does not scale up nor down. It stays the same as do its countermeasures.

If you would prefer to have more creative magical battles where haste is not a factor, that is by all means your choice. It does not mean the spell is imbalanced.
 
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Re: Re

Celtavian said:

I said most fantasy books, not all. I would say about 90% of fantasy stories portray wizards as the most powerful character, even if they are not the main character.

Cite, please.

And ya know, if you want demigodlike spellcasters, what you _really_ want to play is 1E.
 
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Re

Hong,

Arthurian Legends
Dragonlance
Forgotten Realms
Lord of the Rings
Chronicles of Narnia (Not alot of magic in this series, but The White Witch was some kind of sorceress as was the Green Witch who took Caspian's son.)
Conan (Conan just manages to beat the wizards because he is Conan)
Willow (The Movie)
The Belgariad (Most Eddings Books)
The Wheel of Time (I believe this is the series with the Dragon Reborn)

I haven't read the Shannara series, so I am not sure how prominent magic is in this series.

A few others I have read, that I don't remember their names.

I am quite sure that others who read more fantasy than I can come up with more literature with a wizard character that was the most powerful in the book, even if they did not win in the end.

I personally cannot think of a single book or fantasy world without a prominent fantasy wizard/sorcerer type. It is a staple of the genre.


BTW, 3rd edition is just fine for creating demi-god spellcasters. My sorcerer could probably kill our entire party unless he missed a save against a cleric death spell. He is the same level as them with no extraordinary magic items.

It is just too difficult to defeat certain spell combinations such as fly and AOE spells. There are so many sick spell combinations that a prepared caster can usually lay waste to just about anyone. Coupled with the fact that we play FR and you can forget about it.
 
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Re: Re

Celtavian said:
Hong,

Arthurian Legends

I don't recall Merlin casting fly, haste or fireball.


Dragonlance
Forgotten Realms

Using D&D to validate D&D is not exactly wise.


Lord of the Rings

I also don't recall Gandalf casting fly, haste or fireball.


Chronicles of Narnia (Not alot of magic in this series,

Exactly.

Conan (Conan just manages to beat the wizards because he is Conan)

You might as well say that the wizards only lose because they are wizards.


I am quite sure that others who read more fantasy than I can come up with more literature with a wizard character that was the most powerful in the book, even if they did not win in the end.

You have a truly fascinating definition of "power".

BTW, 3rd edition is just fine for creating demi-god spellcasters. My sorcerer could probably kill our entire party unless he missed a save against a cleric death spell. He is the same level as them with no extraordinary magic items.

You say this like it's a positive thing.
 
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I don't recall Merlin casting fly, haste or fireball.

nah, he only cast things like discern location and teleport amongst other things, better read up

I also don't recall Gandalf casting fly, haste or fireball.

god do you ever need to read up

and we are talking novels, not movies, the actual books. read and enjoy. and I can give another example of a novel series that has powerful wizard/sorcerers. The Death Gate Cycle. good ol zifnab, or is it fizban, course I always liked paladine better. and the main character Haplo is a decent spellcaster in his own rights. Oh heck, just about any novel ever written by oh say hick and weiss, salvatore, eddings, greenwood, gygax *yes he has a few*, sullivan, and countless other, as long as it is medival fantasy or along those lines there is a strong or powerful wizard/sorcerer.
 
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Berk said:


better read up then

rofl.gif



god do you ever need to read up

rofl.gif



and we are talking novels, not movies, the actual books. read and enjoy.

Yeah. The BEST PART of the LOTR novelisation is how Gandalf kicks butt all over you screen!!!!1! I can't wait for the comic book adaptation of the novelisation.
 


Berk, are you not merely citing more "D&D" novels here?

nope, all of those authors have wrote novels about things other then DND. Death Gate Cycle isn't even anything like DND, closest it would be to DND is spelljammer but only cuz there is a ship that travels through space and time and such. Most of these people are well recognized for their DND novels but they have other works out there that aren't DND.
 

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