D&D 4E Do you think WotC rebooting Forgotten Realms for 4e would be a good idea?

[Razz]

Thanks for killing the Realms

I want to thank (sarcastically) the FR designers in completely doing away with everything we've come to know and love about the Realms. WotC is already alienating us veterans from past editions with this new junk coming with 4E, and now they're trying to get rid of us veteran Realms fans.

I've read the entries from the years 1375 D.R. to 1385 D.R. (where it ends) in the Grand History of the Realms. Apparently, one of the things about the Realms that I found awesome was its cultures, and cultures bring many religions. The Realms had many deities and it was a fun and variable setting for anyone. There was room to run whatever campaign you wanted.

And now, thanks to this 4E FR crap, they've gone on a huge deicide. Within those ten years, they first killed off Selvetarm and Vhaeraun. Then they kill off Kiaransalee, leaving only Eilistraee and Lolth. They're trying to make the "game" simpler because, apparently, there're too many retard gamers that can't handle a little variety instead of the typical "Good God, Evil God" scenario, which is now what the drow pantheon has turned into.

They then kill off Deep Duerra and Laduguer. Sorry, folks, no duergar clerics in your Realms now! In the process, they lost Gorm Gulthyn and Haela Brightaxe.

Then you kill off Helm. Then, to top it all off, you decide to slay Mystra completely in 1385, screw every spellcaster and form of magic in the Realms with this Spellplague junk, and then say only greater deities managed to live, so now you killed off EVERY deity instead of the greater gods.

Someone tell me why all this is a good thing for the Realms? I'm a conservative Realms fan. I don't mind changes...but so many RSE within the span of a year, five years, 10 years? That's ludicrous.

You don't have to restructure the Realms by killing off so many deities and making the world so much smaller. You just made the most involved, detailed setting into the most mundane, simpleton setting. Thanks for not only ruining D&D, but also the Realms.

I believe I am going to consider developing an organization opposing WotC's policies with D&D. They need to be stopped before they destroy the game entirely. Well, what am I saying? There's no point for me to do that...

They already have destroyed the game and a famous setting along with it.

I agree with Ed Greenwood on everything, especially how the "neighborhood changes and it'll never be the same, wonderful original it was before". But I do disagree with him on one thing: nothing in anyone's right mind can they say all these changes to D&D, from 4th Edition to 4th Edition Forgotten Realms, is going to be a GOOD thing.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Razz is unhappy about a 4E change.

In related news, water is wet, and Gary Gygax likes obscure words.

 

[sidonunspa]

You just made the most involved, detailed setting into the most mundane, simpleton setting. Thanks for not only ruining D&D, but also the Realms.

I have to side with Razz on this...

Why didn’t they just make an all new world?

 

[DMFirebow]

Razz has several good points though. This is a campaign that many of us have been playing for 20+ years, and we've invested a lot of time there.

I'd hate to see a change just for the sake of change. The prescence of all of these dieties in the Realms is much of what the Realms is all about. The mythology and history of the Realms is one of it's attractions.

Making a timejump like this will not work. I've not ever seen it sucessful when used.
Anyone see Superman Returns? Ack...
5 Years Later in the the Legion of Super Heroes Comic..?
1 Year later in DC Comics...?
They don't work. You end up losing all the old fans, and yes you may gain a few new ones, but sooner or later the Realms will die.
Here's hoping they sell the rights to FR to someone who cares before it's too late.

Sorry to be all Doom and Gloom... I just love FR

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I have to side with Razz on this...

Why didn’t they just make an all new world?

We've been over this in this thread. Please check back through the thread.

I answered this in post 64, and Mokona answered it in post 67.

If those are too long or too hard to find for you, I can distill it to: it's less risky, financially, to reboot the Realms and risk losing ALL the existing FR players to other settings, than its to design an entire new world and market it.

If Rich Baker, Bruce Cordell, Rob Heinsoo and the rest of the in-house team can, in a couple of years, create and describe a setting that is anything like as rich as Ed Greenwood had by 1987, after twenty years of organic development through short stories and campaigns, I would be surprised.

I like Ed's world very much, and the work of those who've added to it sympathetically and creatively, from Jeff Grubb to George Krashos; more than the work I've seen of the authors of the 2008 book. So chances are I won't like the 2008 setting as much, myself, even if it's very good in its own right.

Two points.

First, in my humble opinion, which is quite as worthwhile or worthless as yours, most of those twenty years of "organic development" have been a downward spiral, and I've seen no "fluff" (i.e. the most important part of setting) that was materially better in any 3rd Edition FR product than late 1E/early 2E "fluff".

So for me, whilst the FR has become "more detailed", it's quality has not increased as a result, but rather decreased. I don't deny that some FR products have been awesome. Others have been trash, or so mediocre as to be wastes of paper, though, and mediocrity has by the "byword" of FR products since about 1994-5.

The authors do not need to create a "more detailed" world, which is all the late 2E-3E books really provided, they just need to create a more financially successful and popular one. I think that's pretty much doable, thank you very much. Esp. considering the reported poor sales of recent FR products. So much for the people who "love" 3E FR, eh? If there were enough of you buying the products, this wouldn't be happening, I'd suggest.

Secondly, who are the authors of the 2008 FR book, whose work you've disliked so much? I've not seen that information yet.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I'm a conservative Realms fan. I don't mind changes...but so many RSE within the span of a year, five years, 10 years? That's ludicrous.

Why inflate every death of a god into a RSE? Why call ANY deity death (except Mystra's whose existence seems to be necessary for the weave) a RSE? Really dumbing down the concept.

 

[Faraer]

First, in my humble opinion, which is quite as worthwhile or worthless as yours, most of those twenty years of "organic development" have been a downward spiral, and I've seen no "fluff" (i.e. the most important part of setting) that was materially better in any 3rd Edition FR product than late 1E/early 2E "fluff".

The twenty years I mean is 1967–87.

There are excellent and mediocre books both in the early and later parts of the line, surely. I'll take Silver Marches and Lost Empires of Faerûn over FOR1 Draconomicon and FA2 Nightmare Keep.

Secondly, who are the authors of the 2008 FR book, whose work you've disliked so much? I've not seen that information yet.

I named them, as recently revealed by Rich on the Wizards.com boards. I don't dislike their work, in fact I think a lot of Bruce's adventures and some of Rich's Realms writing; they just aren't (thus far) the worldbuilders Ed is.

 

[Simplicity]

In other news, the subprime deity industry suffered another setback today as the Spellplague killed off two more minor dieties. People are blaming the deity rating agencies, and various portfolio brokers who in recent years had taken to chopping up portfolios into smaller and smaller portions and repackaging to sell in a variety of ways to believers. Those believers are now left holding the bag.

Area-Cleric: "I had 20 levels in cleric! I was going to retire to a nice demi-plane. Now what am I supposed to do? I'm ruined!"

Ed Greenwood had referred to the recent boom in deities as "irrational exaltation", and that in order to cool down level-inflation, further cuts may be required in the advancement rate.

 

[Banshee16]

That's one of the things I love about the Now Realms: The heroes aren't the only heroes out there. They won't be the first to climb to level 20. Or 30. Or 50. No matter how powerful they become, chances are that there's several someones that are more powerful than them.

I know many hate that, and want their heroes to save the world and be the greatest fighters and wizards and whatever that ever lived, but I prefer a world where you can't just start doing whatever you want once you hit 12th-level, just because no one else could stop you.

Exactly. And the whole "Heroes at Level 1" thing kinda gets me as a result. I prefer to have the PCs be special...they're definitely more capable than the local baker or cobbler, for instance. But there are others who are also special. The idea that the PCs at lvl 10 can walk into the king's palace and off him because they're heroes, and his guards are lvl 1's is kind of silly.

Having NPCs be "special" doesn't mean the PCs aren't. To me, someone who's intent on their character being the be all and end all of the game world is just participating in a rather fantasy that can be uncomfortable for the rest of the players to watch.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

Then you kill off Helm. Then, to top it all off, you decide to slay Mystra completely in 1385, screw every spellcaster and form of magic in the Realms with this Spellplague junk, and then say only greater deities managed to live, so now you killed off EVERY deity instead of the greater gods.

Razz, did they *say* that they killed off every diety other than the Greater ones? I thought the quote was that only the Greater dieties had the power to keep their realms from crumbling.

Because if all that's actually been mentioned is that the Greater dieties were able to keep their realms together, then maybe the lesser dieties didn't die. What if the other greater dieties, like Sune, formed their own courts, soliciting the lesser and intermediate dieties to serve them, live in their courts, etc. This would result in a setting with more strongly defined alliances of dieties....their numbers were possibly culled a bit, but it would be nowhere near a massacre. And now you'd be able to more easily set up things like religious wars and such going into the future, since the ties between dieties in certain groups would be much stronger than they once were.

If this guess is anything like the truth, I think it could actually be interesting. How many dieties does Sune have around her now? Ilmater, Sharess, Hanali Celanil. And that's just one of them. What about Tyr or Silvanus, or some of the others who I believe are greater?

Hopefully Shaundakul made it. I've always thought he was a cool one.

Banshee